Was it really fright(e)ning?

[Pontius Navigator]

Lots of airframes there, by British standards.

I recall an F4 stude coming in to the office. His instructions were to brief on the Mig 21. Had I got anything on the Mig 21

Well I said, what do you need to know? I said they have 4,000 for starters. A clear indication of quantity being a quality all of its own.

[Wander00]

I recall the last diplay day at Binbrook - VERY wet. Somewhere I have a photo of I++ B++++ doing about M.98 in the rain - and the shock waves on nose and canopy clearly visible. A few months earlier there was a retirement bash at Neatishead for OC Ops, the only Branch commissioned wg cdr in the RAF ISTR (John ????). Lightning was due to fly over -"Where are you ?" asked the Neatishead controller. "Pulling up between the twoers NOW" came the reply. Trouble was he was at Bacton Gas Terminal

[bigglesbrother]

Another Lightning Mk3 figment of imagination..... (2)

Post #47 – The Lightning (Mk3) that once overtook Concorde was described as 'the best of the best' by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995.....

Having made a few transatlantic crossings on Concorde as a pax, I was twice invited to spend some time on the flight deck.

Thus with stick time on the Mk3 & having enjoyed & observed the standard routine Concorde cruise parameters, it is impossible to believe that a Mk3 Lightning ever overtook a Concorde in normal cruise.

The Lightning Mk3 was fast and could accelerate well, but it had only just enough fuel to reach Mach2 on a carefully planned out and back flight.

Pilot’s Notes for the same fuel capacity, but smaller engined Mk1 quote a fuel consumption of 300lbs per minute, per engine, at a Mach 1.7 cruise. Full wing + ventral fuel at start-up is 7,284lbs Avtag.

Throwing in a lucky encounter with a tanker at toc may help a little – if the tanker AND CONCORDE routing are perfectly timed to allow our aviator in XR749 to make a crossing intercept & still have just enough fuel to safely rtb. An angled intercept & missile acquisition just maybe, but not an overtake and wave as you pass Hale (hail?) manoeuvre.

But back to the real world of onboard fuel, for how many minutes could a Mk3 fly at Mach 2?

One minute, maybe two .... and to overtake a Concorde in cruise it needed Mach 2+.

This is another figment of imagination which has become more heroic with time....... Nonetheless a great and enjoyable tale.

The Lightning (Mk3) is a great hotrod in many ways, but it is severely fuel limited, rather than aerodynamically limited when operating at the higher Mach numbers.



Google to see this hotrod Lightning Mk3 picture ....... XR749 - Score Group PLC (gate guard), Glenugie Engineering Works, Peterhead, Aberdeenshire

[tartare]

Interesting.
I'd always assumed the bounce the U2 and catch the Concorde stories were legit.
Will read the Classic Wings article with interest...

[BOAC]

In all these 'stories', only the participants will know the truth, the Lightning pilots and the U2 pilot in particular. I have (kindly) given the benefit of the doubt to those who tell the tales. However, having done 65+ a few times and experienced the almost complete lack of control I have always felt a sense of wonderment and an element of doubt. BUT as the saying goes - I wasn't here.

[ORAC]

Bigglesbrother.

Saw successful* Lightning M2+ stern intercepts twice. (*As claimed by pilots in debrief anyway)

First, 1975-76, Wattisham F3 during exercise against Mirage IV.

The exercise routine was that the FAF would send a pair with a KC135 up the North Sea and they'd then do a M2.0 run south before RTB. LATCC would give us a heads up and we would scramble a pair of F6 with red Top to sit plugged into a tanker on TTL6 waiting for them to break cover and then break off with full tanks and do a frontal intercept when they were about 150nm north.

On this occasion, due to various problems, we ended up with an F6 and an F3 (flown by "the Wandering Milliamp"). The F3 intercept was performed as normal. The F3 was controlled by one of the older WOs and set up for a U26A(?) - 180 x 26 converting to a 90 x 8. He rolled out at 3-4 miles, closed and took the Fox 2 about 20nm north of Bravo 1 at about 48K - and diverted into CS because he didn't have enough gas to reach WT. Landed on fumes.

The Concorde intercept was on the occasion when it flew a trial as a high speed target for the UK AD sqns. Concorde flew a preplanned figure of 8 around the North Sea at a constant M2.0 with height between FL500-550 to hold the speed. Their were pre-planned CAPs and intercept points and times. As above the Binbrook CAPs were supported by AAR with the fighters dropping off the hose at the optimal point, height, heading and range to start to accelerate for the intercept - though on that occasion they were F6.

[BOAC]

That sounds bizarre! I'm having trouble with that one, ORAC. Why fly a 180 x when you have a head-on capability? I would also think I would want to see the target about 40 off at the 90 to have a chance. Having 'turned back' from a M2 chase towards the Cape on a Blinder to desperately get back to the tanker and avoid banging out into the North Sea at 0100 I reckon 8 miles is a touch optimistic for a M2 turning circle?

Now - how long does it take at M2 and a bit to close from 3-4 mm to missile release range (which would have been v close at that speed) on a M2 target? Even at M2.1 (which would be pretty impressive after a 90) it would take a couple of minutes. IF it worked, it was very impressive!

[ORAC]

Stern because the F3 in question was E02+0 not F02+2. (Firestreak, not Redtop - no frontal capability)

The geometry for the crossing leg is 90 x 8 to reflect the turning circle, not the point at which the turn is started. IIRC the northbound leg was flown at about M1.3 with acceleration in the crossing leg and final turn ordered at about 50 off.

IIRC the Concorde intercepts the Lightnings were F020+2, geometry was planned as a 150 x 0 with tgt crossing left to right; ( from dim memory, maybe wrong - acquire and Fox 2 with port Mx in zoom, roll inverted to expose starboard Mx, Fox 2 and pull through.)

However at least one took Judy and converted to a stern intercept.

Added - Radius of Turn in nm:

Mach No at Trop/AOB 45 - 1.4G/AOB 60- 2.0G/TAS

1.6/12.3/7.1/917

1.7/13.9/8.0/975

1.8/15.5/9.0/1032

1.9/17.3/10.0/1089

2.0/19.2/11.1/1147

[Ali Barber]

Once had a go at Concorde for a stern shot with Firewood. Worked out the turning radius and acceleration point from the ODM, but then only got one burner. Turned early and pulled loads of lead to try and roll out in front and below, then snapshoot up to it as it overtook me. Didn't get within a country mile of the damn thing!

[BOAC]

Thanks for all that. 50 off is close to my guess! I mis-interpreted the '90 x 8' as a 'B-Scoper' would. Altogether a pretty good result for the WO! Those radius figures are interesting.

Initials for "the Wandering Milliamp"?

[BOAC]

Thanks for all that. 50 off is close to my guess! I mis-interpreted the '90 x 8' as a 'B-Scoper' would. Altogether a pretty good result for the WO. Those radius figures are interesting.

Initials for "the Wandering Milliamp"?

[ORAC]

D*** F*****

[BOAC]

Aha - known by another name at the OCU. I always reckoned his parents must have had a wicked sense of humour.

[ORAC]

Some good but strange guys on the Lightning. I had Red Dog as my OC Ops at Stanley, mad as a coot. AFAIK he's the only person banned from the bar at Binbrook at the same time he was PMC?

His office at Stanley was the portacabin on the AtC room, he used to come out onto the roof in the morning and the aircrew would come out, bow down and worship him and throw up Star Bars as tribute. He'd gather them up, administer a blessing on the gathering and then return grandly inside.

[BOAC]

Ah memories - knew 'RD' from uni days in the 60's and we trained together at BFTS and bounced off each other through our careers. Last seen by me at the BAC '50th' at Duxford a few moons ago. Didn't know about the Star Bar addiction......

[newt]

Some good but strange guys on the Lightning


Strange ORAC!!!! I resemble that remark!!!!! We did have a lot of characters I must admit but it was great fun!

[Above The Clouds]

So where is LM

[Bevo]

I have posted this before but the memory is still vivid. During the early1970s, while stationed at RAF Lakenheath flying Phantoms, I got the opportunity for one flight in the Lightning at RAF Coltshall. This was of course a two seat version and unfortunately I don’t remember the assigned squadron. The thing I remember most was the excellent handling qualities of the aircraft compared to the Phantom especially in pitch. A very shot legged aircraft, however, and it seemed like we were out of gas just after we got airborne. This led to the reputation that Coltshall had among our pilots as a great place to divert to when the weather was really nasty as the GCA lads there were outstanding in their craft. We assumed that was because the Lightings were always short on fuel and couldn’t make very many missed approaches.

[Courtney Mil]

Bevo,

Yes the Colt boys were great at talk-downs, but I would say the service we had at all the FJ stations was excellent.

[Plastic Bonsai]

Not always high up

It was the Lightnings' last week in service and as I was driving home down a long lane near Leconfield I was a little surprised to see a Jaguar coming in the opposite direction in the avenue of trees being followed very closely by a Lightning only a few feet behind and above it. As they roared overhead I glanced round in time to spot a second Jaguar trying to tuck down behind a very small hill with 2 Lightnings following just as closely.

Low fast and fabulous.

If anyone here wants to own up to this particular cat bullying... I'd just like to say thanks.