Was it really fright(e)ning?
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I think he meant the Lightning F3, not the later, far superior fighter.
I remember an article a while ago, where I think they were Meatboxes practicing a display at about 20,000 feet and had first called up to ask if there was any traffic in the area to be told there was some slow moving traffic at low level, they proceeded into a loop to be suprised by the slow moving traffic over the ground that was actually fast moving traffic in the vertical in the shape of a Lightning that passed through their formation.
Rumour has it the only reason the lightning burnt fuel so fast, was that it leaked so fast, so you had to burn the stuff before it ran out.
Best looking British interceptor by far...
“… the Lightning had a data link mode, but it was never operationally used.”
The nearest to this were the ground based computerized attack profiles 525/625 IIRC. Not very fuel efficient and based around really helpful info such as time to intercept; – couldn’t see the clock when looking in the B scope!
In addition to leading the world in performance, the radar and missile systems were world class. Considering that the radar depended on valve technology and clockwork computers, the guidance solutions were commendable.
With Red Top, the computer upgrade included kinematic ranging for ‘ECM’ head-on attacks (angle rate bombing in the US, who believed that they invented it); not all versions had that module.
The Firestreak guidance was first rate; stories of the technology being hijacked during a US visit? Also the fuse system was very clever in computing time after passing the jet pipe to abeam the cockpit; 60 lb Mills Bomb warhead. Red Top was similarly clever with fuse options for all-aspect launches; expanding ring warhead which ‘sawed’ the target in two. As one Farnborough boffin explained, you have to ‘kill’ a nuclear bomber within 15 sec.
Perhaps the most significant aspect was that the Lightning Air Defense force had the right people – Pilots, Engineers, Operations, and GCI radar. It was a complete and credible system.
The nearest to this were the ground based computerized attack profiles 525/625 IIRC. Not very fuel efficient and based around really helpful info such as time to intercept; – couldn’t see the clock when looking in the B scope!
In addition to leading the world in performance, the radar and missile systems were world class. Considering that the radar depended on valve technology and clockwork computers, the guidance solutions were commendable.
With Red Top, the computer upgrade included kinematic ranging for ‘ECM’ head-on attacks (angle rate bombing in the US, who believed that they invented it); not all versions had that module.
The Firestreak guidance was first rate; stories of the technology being hijacked during a US visit? Also the fuse system was very clever in computing time after passing the jet pipe to abeam the cockpit; 60 lb Mills Bomb warhead. Red Top was similarly clever with fuse options for all-aspect launches; expanding ring warhead which ‘sawed’ the target in two. As one Farnborough boffin explained, you have to ‘kill’ a nuclear bomber within 15 sec.
Perhaps the most significant aspect was that the Lightning Air Defense force had the right people – Pilots, Engineers, Operations, and GCI radar. It was a complete and credible system.
Thread Starter
Yes - my humble apologies - I did mean this:
...which I'd always thought was the frightening - due to sheer power...
and not this:
most certainly not this:
Interested to hear how it handled.
Aside from reaching bingo very quickly - did it have any vices, or was there just so much power available that it didn't really matter..?
...which I'd always thought was the frightening - due to sheer power...
and not this:
most certainly not this:
Interested to hear how it handled.
Aside from reaching bingo very quickly - did it have any vices, or was there just so much power available that it didn't really matter..?
Last edited by tartare; 26th Jul 2012 at 00:12.
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did it have any vices
Asymmetric was a breeze, and supersonic in level flight too
As said, a brilliant design, and with tanker support a worthy air defence machine, if limited in weaponry.
Tanking was a little difficult to get to grips with at first since you could not watch the probe into the basket, and several friends accordingly tried to refuel their Firestreaks and RedTops.
Jack
Jack
Me and my Valiant was trundling around the racetrack in the early sixties with two Lightnings when they were first starting refuelling training. The No1 came in, did his dry contacts and then took some fuel to keep him going whilst he waited for his No2 to do the same thing.
We waited for him to engage. The nav radar, who had the refuelling kit was reporting nothing. Eventually the silence was broken.
"You're not going to believe this. I've brought up an aircraft without a probe."
Two Lightnings rapidly exited stage right for Wattisham.
What had happened was that the Squadron was in the middle of the probe mod program. The No2 has been issued with a probe aircraft but this had gone US on startup. He had rushed into the line hut, 'Givvussanotherone, chief' and then had got into a pre-mod aircraft. He should have known when he didn't bang his head on the probe getting in.
On the last ever Valiant/Lightning refuelling and also the last Valiant tanker flight, (me again) the Lightning from Leconfield had the droque come off the hose whilst he was engaged. The droque had all the valves in so an open pipe pumped fuel at 5000lbs/min into his intake. This put at least one engine out and again two Lightnings exited stage right in a hurry. The one with the droque on his port wing apparantly had considerable difficulty landing the aircraft back at base, in the dark.
We waited for him to engage. The nav radar, who had the refuelling kit was reporting nothing. Eventually the silence was broken.
"You're not going to believe this. I've brought up an aircraft without a probe."
Two Lightnings rapidly exited stage right for Wattisham.
What had happened was that the Squadron was in the middle of the probe mod program. The No2 has been issued with a probe aircraft but this had gone US on startup. He had rushed into the line hut, 'Givvussanotherone, chief' and then had got into a pre-mod aircraft. He should have known when he didn't bang his head on the probe getting in.
On the last ever Valiant/Lightning refuelling and also the last Valiant tanker flight, (me again) the Lightning from Leconfield had the droque come off the hose whilst he was engaged. The droque had all the valves in so an open pipe pumped fuel at 5000lbs/min into his intake. This put at least one engine out and again two Lightnings exited stage right in a hurry. The one with the droque on his port wing apparantly had considerable difficulty landing the aircraft back at base, in the dark.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 26th Jul 2012 at 13:31.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FED, I remember one tale, apocryphal?, of a pair being tanked to the Med by a Valiant. After one bracket over France the pair apparently peeled off for a closer look at a big lake with a huge fountain in it.
They then asked the Tanker what it was and came back for an unscheduled top up.
I think I heard that on the AAR (IFR - went it didn't relate to IMC) course, probably as a caution to follow the plan to the letter.
They then asked the Tanker what it was and came back for an unscheduled top up.
I think I heard that on the AAR (IFR - went it didn't relate to IMC) course, probably as a caution to follow the plan to the letter.
I observed some interesting Lightning handling qualities from a different cockpit. During a Lightning weapons instructors course, I took a Harrier GR3 to Binbrook to fly some DACT against the students. The brief was that I was to take off first and head off out over the north sea. When I called ready, the first Lightning would come out and fly a 1v1, then when he had finished, we would reset and a second would do the same. I should have taken the hint as to what this would mean about the fuel loads of the aircraft.
When I was ready, the first Lightning came up, flashed past me at high speed a couple of times, and claimed a fully justified kill. He returned to Binbrook after about 5 minutes. Having learned a little from that first encounter, I jettisoned some fuel to increase manoeuvrability before the second opponent arrived. I started turning hard after the first pass, and quickly suckered him into a low speed fight that soon led to a level scissors in which I was getting the better position. On the next cross, I saw him apparently doing the sensible thing, getting ready to bug out as his nose sliced down away from me. However, as I reversed, I saw his nose continuing to move in the same yawing motion, as he entered a spin. We still had plenty of height, he had a recoverable aircraft, and I had a jet in which I could change the thrust vector. So I moved the nozzles to the braking stop, pointed vertically down, and did my best to get the pipper on the rotating cockpit for the film. As expected, the spin duly stopped after a couple of turns, so I had an amusing film to take into the debrief. What was not expected was the immediate entry by the Lightning into a spin the other way. I called height warnings for the pilot, 10,000 ft being the minimum for a spinning ejection. After a long pause, the aircraft recovered, and all I heard was a quiet call of "I'm returning to base."
I descended to low level and made my way back to Wittering as planned, landing with ample fuel. The debrief was by telephone, and the second pilot admitted to being quite low by the time he recovered full control.
It was interesting to see how quickly a funny situation can turn to disaster, but also reassuring to see that the Lightning was a aircraft that can be recovered from some extreme situations.
When I was ready, the first Lightning came up, flashed past me at high speed a couple of times, and claimed a fully justified kill. He returned to Binbrook after about 5 minutes. Having learned a little from that first encounter, I jettisoned some fuel to increase manoeuvrability before the second opponent arrived. I started turning hard after the first pass, and quickly suckered him into a low speed fight that soon led to a level scissors in which I was getting the better position. On the next cross, I saw him apparently doing the sensible thing, getting ready to bug out as his nose sliced down away from me. However, as I reversed, I saw his nose continuing to move in the same yawing motion, as he entered a spin. We still had plenty of height, he had a recoverable aircraft, and I had a jet in which I could change the thrust vector. So I moved the nozzles to the braking stop, pointed vertically down, and did my best to get the pipper on the rotating cockpit for the film. As expected, the spin duly stopped after a couple of turns, so I had an amusing film to take into the debrief. What was not expected was the immediate entry by the Lightning into a spin the other way. I called height warnings for the pilot, 10,000 ft being the minimum for a spinning ejection. After a long pause, the aircraft recovered, and all I heard was a quiet call of "I'm returning to base."
I descended to low level and made my way back to Wittering as planned, landing with ample fuel. The debrief was by telephone, and the second pilot admitted to being quite low by the time he recovered full control.
It was interesting to see how quickly a funny situation can turn to disaster, but also reassuring to see that the Lightning was a aircraft that can be recovered from some extreme situations.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
What was not expected was the immediate entry by the Lightning into a spin the other way. I called height warnings for the pilot, 10,000 ft being the minimum for a spinning ejection.
All was quiet until a voice said: "OK Porky, recover it", followed about 10 seconds later by "Porky Eject, Eject, Eject".
About another 10 seconds later Porky replied, "I've got it. Staxton, XX RTB".
In the subsequent debrief it transpired they'd been doing a vertical scissors about around 10K when Porky went into a spin. The No 2 called the eject as soon as he saw the spin and the height - but Porky stayed with it and recovered it. On the day he said he pulled out at about 300ft, it went up with each retelling.
The 10K limit was, it would seem, based on an aircraft in a fully developed spin with an established high rate of descent.
Why did he stay with it? You tell me what goes through a fighter pilot's head in those circumstances.
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No such thing as a silly question etc..
Me and my Valiant was trundling around the racetrack in the early sixties with two Lightnings..
Considering that the radar depended on valve technology and clockwork computers, the guidance solutions were commendable.
Last edited by Fitter2; 26th Jul 2012 at 22:04.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Al R, no, tanker presence was either pre-planned or ad hoc but never continuous.
Unlike the USAF that had 650 tankers and large numbers on QRA we never had that luxury.
Unlike the USAF that had 650 tankers and large numbers on QRA we never had that luxury.
I did a board of Inquiry at Tengah on a Lightning that had caught fire on the ground after startup. The cause was that an overwing vent valve had failed. When the engine started, the AC came on line, the ventral tank started feeding and the failed vent on the wing allowed the fuel to vent over the wing and the fuselage. Sods law says that if you pour enough fuel over a Lightning with an engine running it will catch fire; and so it did. The aircraft had a history of venting fuel. This I found out because being an ex tanker pilot I had a look at the detached Victor KC1's fuel logs which showed that this aircraft has taken disproportionately more fuel than the others.
Our recomendation to prevent a reoccurrence was to advise that the ventral tank should not be switched on until the take off point. This was accepted and put into place by the powers that be. It would be pertinant to point out that I, the other GD pilot, and the Engineering officer on the Board of Inquiry had no direct knowledge of Lightnings but we were General List GD and Engineering officers so therebye qualified. There was also no objection from the hierarchy of Tengah.
A few months later somebody gave his 8mm movie camera to a fellow pilot and asked him to film a double reheat take off with a vertical climb. The aircraft hurled down the runway, lifted off and at around 250knots was rotated into the climb. It G stalled, autorotated into a Kampong killing the pilot and one or two on the ground.
For the B of I it was easy; the had a film of the whole thing. It transpired, with Boscombe Down's help that with a full or nearly full ventral tank the aircraft's C of G was on or aft of the limit, something not experienced before because the ventral was a third empty by the time the wheels came off.
A little knowledge can be dangerous. The B of I, in retrospect, should have been carried out be Lightning friendly members. However, in this case there were no operational issues involved so anybody could do it.
Do I feel guilty? No; I had forgotton about it until now.
Our recomendation to prevent a reoccurrence was to advise that the ventral tank should not be switched on until the take off point. This was accepted and put into place by the powers that be. It would be pertinant to point out that I, the other GD pilot, and the Engineering officer on the Board of Inquiry had no direct knowledge of Lightnings but we were General List GD and Engineering officers so therebye qualified. There was also no objection from the hierarchy of Tengah.
A few months later somebody gave his 8mm movie camera to a fellow pilot and asked him to film a double reheat take off with a vertical climb. The aircraft hurled down the runway, lifted off and at around 250knots was rotated into the climb. It G stalled, autorotated into a Kampong killing the pilot and one or two on the ground.
For the B of I it was easy; the had a film of the whole thing. It transpired, with Boscombe Down's help that with a full or nearly full ventral tank the aircraft's C of G was on or aft of the limit, something not experienced before because the ventral was a third empty by the time the wheels came off.
A little knowledge can be dangerous. The B of I, in retrospect, should have been carried out be Lightning friendly members. However, in this case there were no operational issues involved so anybody could do it.
Do I feel guilty? No; I had forgotton about it until now.
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I recall a flight safety film regarding Lightning vertical pull ups after take off, based around an accident at Akrotiri (APC I presume). So how many accidents were there and when was it banned.
Typhoon at Warton is another story!
The Sweep.
Typhoon at Warton is another story!
The Sweep.
BSweeper, the FS movie Lightning accident was based on the Tengah accident.
If you look at the Skywatch movie, there is a good clip of the 2 Lightning F3s doing reheat rotation take-offs.
Rumour has it that a certain, thoroughly disliked ex-Lightning senior officer* tried to have a Tornado F3 mate court-martialled for exceeding the F3's release to service clearance after a porked-up "let's see how high it will go!" event. Until, that is, someone happened to mention that the reheat rotation was outside the Lightning release to service, so perhaps the example of certain former Lightning pilots might be raised by the defence... Whereupon the matter was dropped.
*Whose name, it is alleged, might have been 'Bill'.....
If you look at the Skywatch movie, there is a good clip of the 2 Lightning F3s doing reheat rotation take-offs.
Rumour has it that a certain, thoroughly disliked ex-Lightning senior officer* tried to have a Tornado F3 mate court-martialled for exceeding the F3's release to service clearance after a porked-up "let's see how high it will go!" event. Until, that is, someone happened to mention that the reheat rotation was outside the Lightning release to service, so perhaps the example of certain former Lightning pilots might be raised by the defence... Whereupon the matter was dropped.
*Whose name, it is alleged, might have been 'Bill'.....
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So far as I can recall, the rotation take-off was never banned as, without any AOA indication and at that speed, it was impossible to exceed any limits (other than fishtailing and crashing of course).
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Aah, the Lightning. I spent about 9 years at Binbrook as a Flight Systems Technician, in AEEF, ASF and 5 Sqn. I even helped scrap the fleet and close the station down.
During that time we had, in no particular order:
F3 display pilot climbed in an F6, pulled a rote, managed to get the gear up before he realised he was in a 6 not a 3 and sank back onto the runway. He managed to get the thing airborne but left most of the ventral tank and some of the tailplane behind.
F3 display pilot practicing just outside the fence, pulled a negative G turn, stalled at about 2000 feet and banged out. I saw that one happen. I even got to guard the wreck. Lucky me.
F6 on APC in Akrotiri shot himself down. Very neat trick, I thought, took real skill to do that.
T5 gear collapsed on landing when the brakes were applied. Stopped just short of the fence to missile city. Could have been messy.
Forget the model, but one a/c on its first flight after a check 3 in ASF suffered a reheat pump fire and ended up at RAF Dogger Bank.
Another driver forgot to lock the canopy and discovered that, yes, the canopy can clear the tailplane at 90 knots.
Another driver in an F6 had a close encounter with the North Sea and ended up pulling an estimated 13½G pull up - that a/c spent the next 3 and-a-bit years in ASF getting straightened out. This was one a/c that never again went on APC - the guns couldn't be harmonised.
An F6 sans Avons being manouvered round the hangar with an electric tug ended up sat on its jet pipe with an electric tug dangling from the nose gear and a very embarrased radar sergeant hanging on for dear life.
An F6 jumping its chocks at Golf Dispersal at Akrotiri and legging it for the storm drains at the edge of the bondu. Well done to the liney who managed to get a chock in front of the nose wheel!
We lost 2 more in my time but the pilots didn't survive. One in a spin, the other in a CFIT.
Frightening? It scared the cr@p out of me!
During that time we had, in no particular order:
F3 display pilot climbed in an F6, pulled a rote, managed to get the gear up before he realised he was in a 6 not a 3 and sank back onto the runway. He managed to get the thing airborne but left most of the ventral tank and some of the tailplane behind.
F3 display pilot practicing just outside the fence, pulled a negative G turn, stalled at about 2000 feet and banged out. I saw that one happen. I even got to guard the wreck. Lucky me.
F6 on APC in Akrotiri shot himself down. Very neat trick, I thought, took real skill to do that.
T5 gear collapsed on landing when the brakes were applied. Stopped just short of the fence to missile city. Could have been messy.
Forget the model, but one a/c on its first flight after a check 3 in ASF suffered a reheat pump fire and ended up at RAF Dogger Bank.
Another driver forgot to lock the canopy and discovered that, yes, the canopy can clear the tailplane at 90 knots.
Another driver in an F6 had a close encounter with the North Sea and ended up pulling an estimated 13½G pull up - that a/c spent the next 3 and-a-bit years in ASF getting straightened out. This was one a/c that never again went on APC - the guns couldn't be harmonised.
An F6 sans Avons being manouvered round the hangar with an electric tug ended up sat on its jet pipe with an electric tug dangling from the nose gear and a very embarrased radar sergeant hanging on for dear life.
An F6 jumping its chocks at Golf Dispersal at Akrotiri and legging it for the storm drains at the edge of the bondu. Well done to the liney who managed to get a chock in front of the nose wheel!
We lost 2 more in my time but the pilots didn't survive. One in a spin, the other in a CFIT.
Frightening? It scared the cr@p out of me!