Iran Air 655 Incident- ACI last night.
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No you shouldn't get away with it but nor should you be tried for Murder, unless there is evidence that you were in the vicinity of the bus with the intention of killing the kids.
In the UK there are offences of causing death by dangerous driving and causing death by careless driving.
There is also an offence of Murder.
In the UK there are offences of causing death by dangerous driving and causing death by careless driving.
There is also an offence of Murder.
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An honest mistake? I'm sorry, that does not wash. The guy is employed NOT to make mistakes of this nature....and bearing in mind it's his profession, it's fair that he would be held culpable, just as a doctor would be if he acted incompetently and killed someone through poor practice.
I wonder what people would have argued had it been a US airline shot down off the coastline of the US by an Iranian ship?
What do we think the thoughts would be then?
I wonder what people would have argued had it been a US airline shot down off the coastline of the US by an Iranian ship?
What do we think the thoughts would be then?
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@Airpolice
OK- if I believed that bus had a bomb inside it and was about to ram into a shopping centre, and I ran it off the road and killed the lot, what would I be tried for?
An honest mistake?
OK- if I believed that bus had a bomb inside it and was about to ram into a shopping centre, and I ran it off the road and killed the lot, what would I be tried for?
An honest mistake?
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I wonder what people would have argued had it been a US airline shot down off the coastline of the US by an Iranian ship?
However, history, is littered with similar incidents, in every corner of the globe. The problem would appear that the 'victor', is always victorious, and writes history, or re writes history, in their own fashion and to suit their slanted view of 'their' victory. It is not a great and fair world we live in, never has been, despite centuries of 'advancement'
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Jakey the answer to that question rather depends if it was your role and responsibility to protect the shopping centre doesn't it.
If you are a random prole spouting mad ramblings about bombs and buses to justify your actions then murder may be a justifiable charge, but diminished responsibility probably comes into play. If however you are designated as defender of the shopping centre and have strong reason to believe the bus has a bomb and is targeting the shopping centre then i can't see how any reasonable and reasoning person can condemm you for your actions.
If you are a random prole spouting mad ramblings about bombs and buses to justify your actions then murder may be a justifiable charge, but diminished responsibility probably comes into play. If however you are designated as defender of the shopping centre and have strong reason to believe the bus has a bomb and is targeting the shopping centre then i can't see how any reasonable and reasoning person can condemm you for your actions.
At the risk of further winding up a troll
they are in fact very easy questions to answer. However, as you show no inclination to listen to any answers so far, why bother?
(and be careful, these are not easy questions to answer....)
Last edited by Fitter2; 17th Jul 2012 at 16:37.
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If you are a rifleman manning a VCP in Northern Ireland during the troubles, it is your duty to stop traffic, and look for all things bad. If a car runs the VCP, you are being threatened and you may open fire. If you succeed in killing all of the occupants before the vehicle hits the VCP, you have done your duty, home for tea and medals.
If on the other hand you continue to shoot at the vehicle once it has passed the VCP, then the threat is receding, and you may commit murder.
Capt Rogers believed his ship was under threat from a hostile military aircraft a mere 10 miles away that had altered its course to descend and accelerate towards him. He therefore ordered an attack in defense of his ship. No problem in regards to his decision making. Had he ordered the wreckage strafed, then he'd have been in the wrong, but he didn't.
It was a tragic mistake, based upon false information being presented. The aircraft didn't descend, nor did it attack. That's not what the Captain was told though.
If on the other hand you continue to shoot at the vehicle once it has passed the VCP, then the threat is receding, and you may commit murder.
Capt Rogers believed his ship was under threat from a hostile military aircraft a mere 10 miles away that had altered its course to descend and accelerate towards him. He therefore ordered an attack in defense of his ship. No problem in regards to his decision making. Had he ordered the wreckage strafed, then he'd have been in the wrong, but he didn't.
It was a tragic mistake, based upon false information being presented. The aircraft didn't descend, nor did it attack. That's not what the Captain was told though.
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what would I be tried for?
An honest mistake?
An honest mistake?
I'm not sure you'd have much of a defence if you killed a bus load of people to save a shopping centre.
I don't know which country has the offence of "making an honest mistake" so where you would be tried for that is a mystery.
There's a world of difference between members of the armed forces, on duty, in combat, under threat, and normal people going about their daily grind.
Perhaps if some of your 800 hours had been done in uniform, you'd have a better understanding of what was going on in the control room just before the missile was fired. Perhaps if we knew how many of your 800 were as a passenger, we'd have a better idea of how much of a troll you are.
Spandex,
Air police, I didn't mention murder. I would, however, expect to be on the receiving end of some justice no?
The reality is that, for a multitude of reasons, not everyone who gets caught will go to trial, and that's just the way it is.
What I'm not sure about is who it is that Jakey the Troll is angry at, apart from the whole world.
As for difficult questions, nah, that's easy. They were protecting the image of projecting an image.
I don't see a lot of difference between regime change over the years. Hitler wanted the Jews gone, probably because he didn't like Jews and Rumsfeld wanted a war for Halliburton to make money because he's worked for them since he was at Uni.
The US were happy to destroy Saddam and Gadaffi and yet they object to China wanting to have a say in how Taiwan is run.
Why is it ok for some Libyans to kill the people in power in order overthrow their government but wrong for the people of Northern Ireland to kill politicians in London?
If the IRA should come back up to operating strength and resume hostilities, to shake off the oppression of the British, would the American military wade in to support the poor downtrodden folk of Belfast?
The US military machine is an extension of the White House and whether the ship should or should not have been there is neither here nor there.
They were told to go so they went. They were threatened so they responded with force. Sadly, they responded to threats by shooting down the wrong aircraft. Some of the people who ought to shoulder the blame are in the Pentagon.
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Capt Rogers believed his ship was under threat from a hostile military aircraft a mere 10 miles away that had altered its course to descend and accelerate towards him. He therefore ordered an attack in defense of his ship. No problem in regards to his decision making. Had he ordered the wreckage strafed, then he'd have been in the wrong, but he didn't.
It was a tragic mistake, based upon false information being presented. The aircraft didn't descend, nor did it attack. That's not what the Captain was told though.
It was a tragic mistake, based upon false information being presented. The aircraft didn't descend, nor did it attack. That's not what the Captain was told though.
There is a fundamental difference. The information was there had he have known where to look and how to look (and in fairness, had the correct comms equipment). The truth was, he did not.
And he showed NO contrition, which is even worse.
Well, a driver of a motorcycle makes a mistake on a turn and kills someone and still he ends in a trial and probably jail time.
A man suffers an accidental discharge a kills someone and still he ends in a trial, probably jail time.
This man was in command of a Ticonderoga class Cruiser (with plenty of staff to support him, lots of systems to help in his decisions), fired missiles against a civilian jet to make a tragedy and walked home? And the punishment is he not ended as an Admiral?
In the other end, as a lawyer, I canīt see the "mistake" here. It is clearly a case of gross negligence. And, as Romans said culpa lata dolo aequiparatur .
Sorry, justice has not been done here.
A man suffers an accidental discharge a kills someone and still he ends in a trial, probably jail time.
This man was in command of a Ticonderoga class Cruiser (with plenty of staff to support him, lots of systems to help in his decisions), fired missiles against a civilian jet to make a tragedy and walked home? And the punishment is he not ended as an Admiral?
In the other end, as a lawyer, I canīt see the "mistake" here. It is clearly a case of gross negligence. And, as Romans said culpa lata dolo aequiparatur .
Sorry, justice has not been done here.
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Airpolice- a lot of that I agree with as it happens....save for the bit about 800 hours in uniform etc...if people want to (and are daft enough to) work in those positions, it comes with the territory, I am afraid.
Someone questioned my age on here- I'd put it like this- old enough not to want to play boy soldiers anymore.
It's a sad truism that politicians can always find people stupid enough to pull the trigger for them.
Aside from this particular issue, the greatest crimes in the world are now committed in government and board rooms, and that is an absolute fact.
Someone questioned my age on here- I'd put it like this- old enough not to want to play boy soldiers anymore.
It's a sad truism that politicians can always find people stupid enough to pull the trigger for them.
Aside from this particular issue, the greatest crimes in the world are now committed in government and board rooms, and that is an absolute fact.
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In a parallel universe......
So....................... had there been an F14 tucked under the airbus, hidden from view until within firing range.... ship gets hit, sailors die, captain survives and here we are years later wanting to hang the captain for failing to protect his men.
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So....................... had there been an F14 tucked under the airbus, hidden from view until within firing range.... ship gets hit, sailors die, captain survives and here we are years later wanting to hang the captain for failing to protect his men.
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By the way- when questioned re an apology, this was GWB's response, which says it all....
"American will never apologise, we haven't in the past and we won't in the future, it's not something we believe we need to do. I'm sorry but that's just the way we are."
Jakey, although I fully understand where you are coming from, and I too find a huge gap in the logic regarding, "Airspeed, descent and attack" given the amount of technology on board the Ticonderoga Class, you are pi**ing against the wind with the cowboys !!
It is just how it is, that's all. Some things will never change !
I mean to say
Or even
Sweet mother of Jeezus 
It is just how it is, that's all. Some things will never change !
I mean to say
I was wrong in calling this guy a Troll - I should have gone for Tiresome Troll!!
Go paddle your canoe numb-nutz!!!
Go paddle your canoe numb-nutz!!!
Jakey, could you please purchase a ticket and head off back to Iran. You're becoming quite tedious.