Iran Air 655 Incident- ACI last night.
 

I was watching, last night, the re-run of the Iran Air 655 incident.

I could not believe the comments from the Naval people interviewed- they did not seem to comprehend they'd committed an act of murder.

They did not seem to comprehend that there was no war, what they did was wholly wrong, there was a series of humoungous mistakes made, and Iran Air did nothing that was moderately wrong!

It’s astonishing that the Commander of the ship in question still has his liberty- he murdered over 290 people, simple as....

Then got a medal for murdering 290 people...

It's a disgrace- where are the UN and so on in this situation?

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Does anyone know why or how this was covered up and never brought to any form of justice?

it is utterly sickening.

Erm....it wasn't covered up. It was reported at the time, subject to an investigation and you've just watched a programme about it. Hardly a secret.

Well

1. There was no public trial (a military one yes, but this was an act of war or terrorism)
2. The Americans actually commended the officers (hilarious!) and gave them gongs! Please explain that as it's beyond me!!
3. There was never an opportunity to bring these guys to justice for the murders they committed.

If you were from Libya, you'd struggle to differentiate between this and Lockerbie in terms of cause and effect, in honesty.

Nice try,troll!
:8

Jakey: No war? Not from where I was standing.

Read Gulf of Conflict - A History of US-Iranian Confrontation at Sea which still resonates with maritime forces deployed in the Gulf today.

I'm not excusing the American CO's actions and, for a variety of reasons, I don't think an RN warship would have made the same tragic mistakes. However, welcome to the world where things are rarely black and white and snap decisions by frontline personnel in the heat of the moment can result in innocent lives being saved or lost. It's a huge responsibility for those involved and the balance of decision is often fine. There but for the grace of God, etc.

FODP

Thanks for that. I take your thoughts, but by definition, there was no war (look up UN definition)

I also agree re snap decisions and innocent lives....but do you not think that when a CO takes on the responsibility, that he should be held by those actions? The CO should have had 35 years for murder, end of story.

It was a huge cluster-f, and when you hear the various people interviewed there does not even seem to be any contrition, which is really shocking.

More:

the airliner was transmitting an Identification friend or foe code for a civilian aircraft

the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles. This contradicted earlier Navy statements that were misleading if not incorrect. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) report of December, 1988 placed the USS Vincennes well inside Iran's territorial waters.

According to the U.S. Navy investigation the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency.

ten attempts were made to contact Iran Air flight 655: seven on military frequencies and three on commercial frequencies, addressed to an "unidentified Iranian aircraft" and giving its speed as 350 knots (650 km/h), which was the ground speed of the aircraft their radar reported. The crew of the Iran Air 655, however, would have seen a speed of 300 knots (560 km/h) on their controls, which was their relative airspeed, possibly leading them to conclude that the Vincennes was talking to another aircraft.

The ship's crew did not efficiently consult commercial airliner schedules, due to confusion over which time zone the schedules referred to. The schedules flight times used Bandar Abbas airport time while the Vincennes was on Bahrain time. The airliner's departure was 27 minutes later than scheduled. "The CIC was also very dark, and the few lights that it did have flickered every time the Vincennes fired at the speedboats. This was of special concern to Petty Officer Andrew Anderson, who first picked up Flight 655 on radar and thought that it might be a commercial aircraft. As he was searching in the Navy's listing of commercial flights, he apparently missed Flight 655 because it was so dark

Agreed, it was a completet c0ck up. It did go to the International Court of Justice, but the Yanks settled out of court with ~$130M sum so as not to drag it through the Courts. Rogers did get a gong but it was for his aggressive leadership of VINCENNES (apparently he was an aggressive SOAB according to his USN peers - cited by CO of USS SIDES). It is not uncommon to get the Legion of Merrit as a CO following a 2-3 year tour. He did not get promoted and was sent to a backwater tour and retired about 3 years later.

There were lots of Human Factors in this and the main one was "expectancy bias" - he heard and saw what he wanted to see/hear. It has stark similarities to the Patriot vs GR4 in 2003. Don't forget that the Patriot Bty Cdr did not do 'chokey' for their error either.

So really, I don't see why this should all be dragged up again?

LJ

PS. It is believed that Rogers' wife was targetted by a Pipe-Bomb IED on her truck in mainland USA - luckily she escaped injury. Also, there have been links to the Iranian's outrage and technological aid given to the Pan Am bombers. Both have never been officially confirmed, but would seem plausible.

Leon

Thanks for that...

Re 'dragging up' - well because I watched it last night! and also, Rogers (and others) has escaped trial and penalty, which is wholly wrong. There is no excuse for what happened, and in honesty, if a Nazi war criminal can be brought to trial at 97, then why not Rogers? IMO, and by most legal definitions, his actions were murder, simple as that.

Re Pan Am103

Lockerbie 103 came down shortly after, and Iran were always pegged for being responsible, but it wasn't proven....also there's a strong school of thought that Iran paid Lib to do it for them. However at the time, Bush needed both Lib and Iran on his side to fight against Iraq, so he pulled off accusing Iran for Pan Am 103 (if you follow all that).

The proceedings at the ICJ are available here: Contentious Cases | International Court of Justice

Worth reading.

Regards,

I thought Captain Joseph Patrick Curry brought down 103?

Jakey

It's also not murder, IMHO. At best it is "involuntary manslaughter" that stemmed from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional, or negligent, act leading to death.

He believed it was an IrAF F-14A and not an airliner with lots of innocent people on board. He would appear to have shown some negligence in his command required of him. He was probably "trigger happy" from what had happened to USS STARK the previous year and a recent small incident with Iranian gunboats. Yes, as I said, he c0cked up, but he did not wake up in the morning and think "you know what, I'm going to schwack an airliner and kill a bunch of innocents today". If he had done, that would be murder.

He also paid his own price. He did not make Admiral, which one would expect for a Captain of an AEGIS Class. His family may have been targetted in retaliation. He was "put out to grass" and retired soon after. He also has to live with the thoughts of his actions and the loss of life he caused.

In my opinion, he has suffered enough. He has also narrowly avoided an ICJ Court Case as the Iranians accepted reparation from the US Govt that he was working for and representing on the Bridge of VINCENNES. That is probably why it went no further than it did.

LJ

LJ

I disagree wholly about murder- he fired the rockets with the direct and calculated intention of bringing down an aircraft which he had not correctly indetified.

I do agree that towards the PAX, 'malice afterthought' was not provable, but in terms if the aircraft, yes, there was MA.

I guess murder with diminished responsibility would have been a decent call, as clearly he was in no fit mental state to command a canoe, let alone a warship.

EDIT: and regarding not making Admiral, jeepers!! He should have served 30 years for that....he killed 260 people, including 66 kids. The frightening thing is when interviewed he shows no contrition whatsover, the arrogant SOAB.

3 July, 1988. Glad to see you get spun up over an old tragedy. Do you also get up in the morning and work yourself into a righteoue fury over the buzz bombs that hit London, or The Blitz?

I somehow manage, for my own part, not to get up each day utterly pissed off at Saddam Hussein and his Air Force's attack on USS Stark. 'Twas a mistake, ya see. His Mirage pilot cocked up. (And the CO of the Stark got no points for maintaining readiness ... )

As to your "there was no war" you are wrong.

There was a war in progress, between Iran and Iraq. US had chosen to reflag Kuwaiti tankers, who had been under attack. One of the belligerent nations, Iran, had been making them targets.

Furthermore, the US had been participating in periodic military actions vis a vis Iran since Earnest Will and Preying Mantis. A state of belligerency had at some point previous been established by action, though there was no further declaration since POLITICALLY it was not deemed necessary to go any further than an occasional retaliation or raid. You also might be interested to learn that Rogers was involved at the time in an armed interaction with Iranian boats. There was shooting going on already, stage set by previous actions and operations noted. (Whether or not he should have is another matter, but his chain of command didn't relieve him, so perhaps it fit within US policy at the time. DID THAT EVER OCCUR TO YOU?)

You need to learn what war is: it is a child of politics. It is also very messy. You also need to stop pretending that the world is a parlor or a courtroom. As above, your fancy "black and white" model of the world doen't match reality.

All above considered, CAPTAIN Rogers cocked up with fatal consequences. In the larger picture, since POLITICALLY he'd been put in a particular position -- in which one can make such errors -- his liability is not the same as if you and I were to decide, as a team, to blow up a train from London to York and kill 260 people.

A fatal mistake (no question) rather than a deliberate intention to kill civilians.

I note that your lying mouth states that Rogers got a medal for hitting the airbus.
False.
See the above explanation for how end of tour awards are a commonplace. (Indeed, some of us who served in the USN wonder if the proliferation of such kinds of awards don't undermine the whole awards system ... )

Why do I bother? I expect you to keep foaming at the mouth. Gee, someone a few posts up called it: Troll.

And damnit, I took the bait. Not my finest hour. :uhoh:

Lonewolf- I'm assuming you're either Capt William Rogers or perhaps Jack Nicholson in 'A Few Good Men'? Which one?

You can spin it whichever way you choose. The issue here is civilians and also 66 kids DIED because of absolute and total incompetency, and probably, the same gung-ho behaviour and lack of sense and balance that you have just exhibited.

What angers me is the lack of admission of guilt from the US, the lack of criminal proceedings against an incompetent belligerent fool and the gung-ho justification of any form of violence.

And I have every right to express that.

As usual, lad, you are wrong in your assumption.

I note your emotive language and spin: you count the casualties as X civilians AND 66 kids.

Are not the kids assumed to be civilians (and for the most part, pilgrims)?

No surprise. Clear thinking isn't a trait one finds in the habitually outraged.

I don't deny your right to express that.

I also have no respect for your how and why.

The year is 2012. Get with the program.

Best to stay well away from americans in general, especially if they're armed. Even their allies are never safe, they don't normally need a rational excuse to open fire, it's in their dna, it's called the 'cock' protein.

P.P.: suggest you learn what "counting the hits and ignoring the misses" applies to in the field of reasoning and drawing conclusions.

Lonewolf

Once you've wiped the drool off your keyboard...

Would you believe an apology is in order? If not, why?

Would you consider that Rogers should be prosecuted? If not, why?

I don't understand your point about numbers- let's just say and agree that 290 people, of which 66 were children, were killed unlawfully through the utter incompetence and aggression of a handful of trigger-happy fools.

Is that fair?

Jakey, are you suggesting he should get 35 years for "Murdering an aircraft"?

Murder with diminished responsibility? keep on guessing.

"an aircraft which he had not correctly indetified." You missed the point there, he had, in his mind, identified it. He was wrong, but didn't know that. This was an honest mistake, possibly even carelessness, but not by any legal definition is it murder.

The year is indeed 2012. Let's forget and forgive everything prior then shall we?!

If, through incompetence or negligence, I ram a bus full of "civilians" and children off the road and kill them all I assume that I'll get away with it for twenty four years and then everyone will say it's alright, get with the program?

Doubt it.