CAA Military Accreditation
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As far as the CAA and 22 Gp were concerned they have honoured the recognition of experience gained through Mil trg by stating that you don't need to complete any ground theory instruction and can simply sit the exams, you also have the ability to sit an ATPL/IR skills test without undergoing any other form of trg, as long as your aircraft is compliant with EASA regs and the flight examiner is suitably qualified, i.e. your Sqn IRE would need to be an accredited CAA IRE/TRE; I'm sure that every fleet has at least one of them!! Chances of the Mob letting you have a CAA IRE/TRE onboard right now? I reckon you've got better odds on winning the Euro lottery!
I have been reading CAP804 again and note that the Status section on page one of the forward clearly states that CAP804 doesn't come into effect until 17 Sep 12, the only exception is Part O which is valid from 27 Jul 12, which should mean that we can apply for exams and/or skills tests now using the MAS. Do we still have to wait until 17 Sep 12 to get an EASA license or can we apply earlier?
We could really do with someone from the CAA with at least one finger on the pulse to give definitive answers because it seems to me even the CAA don't know what their own regs are.
I have been reading CAP804 again and note that the Status section on page one of the forward clearly states that CAP804 doesn't come into effect until 17 Sep 12, the only exception is Part O which is valid from 27 Jul 12, which should mean that we can apply for exams and/or skills tests now using the MAS. Do we still have to wait until 17 Sep 12 to get an EASA license or can we apply earlier?
We could really do with someone from the CAA with at least one finger on the pulse to give definitive answers because it seems to me even the CAA don't know what their own regs are.
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As far as the CAA and 22 Gp were concerned they have honoured the recognition of experience gained through Mil trg by stating that you don't need to complete any ground theory instruction and can simply sit the exams,
And they also say that you can do this after 70hrs. That is training (as you yourself say), not experience. I fear someone's been sold a pup.
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 29th Jul 2012 at 19:22.
The amendment was dated Jul 12 but the download page has the following note:
Notifying
the UK requirements for pilot licensing and also a guide to the new European
Flight Crew Licensing requirements. Effective on 17 September 2012; LASORS will
be withdrawn from that date. A5 paper copies are available for pre-order from
TSO.
IMPORTANT: The CAA has announced a new date for implementation of
European Regulations for flight crew licensing in the UK. Therefore any
reference to 1 July 2012 should now read as 17 September 2012.
If LASORS are withdrawn on 17 Sep, does that mean we can use LASORS as the rulebook until then? That might just be enough time for me to get an IR.
As an aside, what do all the commercial pilots with frozen ATPLs have to do to unfreeze them? Will they have to do the ATPL exams again? If not, what is the difference between them retaining their theory credit and those of us who have CPLs issued under the bridging scheme?
Notifying
the UK requirements for pilot licensing and also a guide to the new European
Flight Crew Licensing requirements. Effective on 17 September 2012; LASORS will
be withdrawn from that date. A5 paper copies are available for pre-order from
TSO.
IMPORTANT: The CAA has announced a new date for implementation of
European Regulations for flight crew licensing in the UK. Therefore any
reference to 1 July 2012 should now read as 17 September 2012.
As an aside, what do all the commercial pilots with frozen ATPLs have to do to unfreeze them? Will they have to do the ATPL exams again? If not, what is the difference between them retaining their theory credit and those of us who have CPLs issued under the bridging scheme?
Also confused
With a CAA ATPL(H) and civvie street looming, wtf do I have to do? It seemed straightforward, get a civvie type rating and convert to an EASA ATPL(H), worry about IR later but have I now got to sit some more exams?
SL
SL
Even though all other part-FCL requirements were delayed from 8 Apr until 30 Jun and subsequently until 17 Sep, the CAA did not apply this to Military Accreditation.....
Why?
For the MAS to have any credibility at all, a 'tiered' system, such as the previous 'experienced QSP' system is absolutely essential. In the big picture, if restoration of an accreditation system which was wholly acceptable for 10 years under JAR-FCL cannot readily be achieved under EASA, then it is EASA which is at fault, not the accreditation system!
LASORS 2010 is valid until CAP 804 becomes effective on 17 Sep 2012 - except for Section 4 part O which became effective on 27 Jul 2012.
Why?
For the MAS to have any credibility at all, a 'tiered' system, such as the previous 'experienced QSP' system is absolutely essential. In the big picture, if restoration of an accreditation system which was wholly acceptable for 10 years under JAR-FCL cannot readily be achieved under EASA, then it is EASA which is at fault, not the accreditation system!
LASORS 2010 is valid until CAP 804 becomes effective on 17 Sep 2012 - except for Section 4 part O which became effective on 27 Jul 2012.
Last edited by BEagle; 29th Jul 2012 at 19:49.
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Uncle G
Total agree, experienced Mil aviators $h!t out in every respect. Only a complete idiot would attempt to sit all 14 exams without getting assistance/guidance from a trg provider first.....it's a loaded gun. As soon as a Mil pilot fails an exam the CAA will claim they are justified in their decision to make us sit all of the exams....I think it sucks the fat one.
As far as the theoretical ability to simply sit a skills test in a Mil aircraft goes...well, good luck to anyone who can convince the Mil that it is in the wider service interest. I suspect the overwhelming majority will have to pay for the use of a civvy aircraft, having at least the minimum number of hours on that type, as specified in the AMC and GM document.
All in all it's very disappointing to have had to wait for the MAS since April and get what seems to be a massive slap in the face for amassing thousands of hours doing the Government's dirty work in difficult, demanding, dangerous situations.
I for one feel no remorse in getting out, the Service demands everything from you but currently gives very little back in return; loyalty is a 2-way thing. How many Mil aviators feel valued by their employer right now?
Total agree, experienced Mil aviators $h!t out in every respect. Only a complete idiot would attempt to sit all 14 exams without getting assistance/guidance from a trg provider first.....it's a loaded gun. As soon as a Mil pilot fails an exam the CAA will claim they are justified in their decision to make us sit all of the exams....I think it sucks the fat one.
As far as the theoretical ability to simply sit a skills test in a Mil aircraft goes...well, good luck to anyone who can convince the Mil that it is in the wider service interest. I suspect the overwhelming majority will have to pay for the use of a civvy aircraft, having at least the minimum number of hours on that type, as specified in the AMC and GM document.
All in all it's very disappointing to have had to wait for the MAS since April and get what seems to be a massive slap in the face for amassing thousands of hours doing the Government's dirty work in difficult, demanding, dangerous situations.
I for one feel no remorse in getting out, the Service demands everything from you but currently gives very little back in return; loyalty is a 2-way thing. How many Mil aviators feel valued by their employer right now?
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VP,
When you say "frozen-ATPL" do you really mean a "CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits"? That's what most young civilian pilots start with when they join an airline - although some start with a Multi-Pilot Licence these days. All will convert their licences to ATPLs when they achieve 1500 hrs PIC/PICUS with an airline. So, ex-military pilots who gained those credentials through the MAC should be treated no differently than their civilian colleagues; after all, there are probably hundreds operating with the airlines as I write.
Although the changeover won't really impact military pilots if they already hold a valid CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits and an MCC exemption, if they have yet to achieve any of them, that it may hurt!
When you say "frozen-ATPL" do you really mean a "CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits"? That's what most young civilian pilots start with when they join an airline - although some start with a Multi-Pilot Licence these days. All will convert their licences to ATPLs when they achieve 1500 hrs PIC/PICUS with an airline. So, ex-military pilots who gained those credentials through the MAC should be treated no differently than their civilian colleagues; after all, there are probably hundreds operating with the airlines as I write.
Although the changeover won't really impact military pilots if they already hold a valid CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits and an MCC exemption, if they have yet to achieve any of them, that it may hurt!
Last edited by LFFC; 29th Jul 2012 at 20:14.
To have a CPL issued under the bridging scheme we have undertaken exactly the same exams as those military pilots who have been issued a CPL/IR. Why should we be treated differently? I can accept that to add an IR that we could be expected to do the IR exams but why should we have to repeat all 14 ATPL exams when the CAA have already accepted my theoretical training (else they wouldn't have issued my CPL). If they no longer accept that my theoretical training is valid then should they not withdraw my licence?
This begs another question. When mil pilots with CPL/IR try to upgrade to ATPL, they won't be able to demonstrate passes in all 14 ATPL exams. Will they have to do them again? If not, why should I have to?
It seems to me that the rules are hugely inconsistent.
This begs another question. When mil pilots with CPL/IR try to upgrade to ATPL, they won't be able to demonstrate passes in all 14 ATPL exams. Will they have to do them again? If not, why should I have to?
It seems to me that the rules are hugely inconsistent.
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As far as the CAA and 22 Gp were concerned they have honoured the recognition of experience gained through Mil trg
"Military Service" Does not finish at OCU output standard! Is this a noncompliance issue and if so, who is it actionable by? 22Gp, the CAA or EASA?
Last edited by VinRouge; 29th Jul 2012 at 20:32.
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SAR Bloke,
I hope you kept the covering letter that was enclosed with your new CPL; if you did, it probably said that you were the proud owner of a "CPL with ATPL theory credits". That will be on the CAA's system (in the same way that it is for all ab-initio civilian pilots joining an airline) for future reference when they achieve their 1500 hrs PICUS and qualify to upgrade to an ATPL.
If I understand your situation correctly, you haven't yet completed your initial civilian IR. That may cause the CAA a bit of difficulty as they get their heads around the new system, but I think they should see reason if you show then in black and white that you have the "ATPL theory credits" - if not, find yourself a good solicitor.
I hope you kept the covering letter that was enclosed with your new CPL; if you did, it probably said that you were the proud owner of a "CPL with ATPL theory credits". That will be on the CAA's system (in the same way that it is for all ab-initio civilian pilots joining an airline) for future reference when they achieve their 1500 hrs PICUS and qualify to upgrade to an ATPL.
If I understand your situation correctly, you haven't yet completed your initial civilian IR. That may cause the CAA a bit of difficulty as they get their heads around the new system, but I think they should see reason if you show then in black and white that you have the "ATPL theory credits" - if not, find yourself a good solicitor.
Last edited by LFFC; 29th Jul 2012 at 20:57.
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Have I got this right?
I bit the bullet last year and completed a CPL/IR. I also got MCC credit. My correspondence with CAA at the time indicates (as well as on my license) that I have a JAR-FCL CPL/IR with frzn ATPL theory credit. My understanding is that, in this case, my license will be automatically changed to an EASA Part-FCL license in due course. Or am I missing something?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
SFO
Thanks in advance for any advice.
SFO
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Taxi
Hi,
Have only read the document very quickly but I cant see any mention of taxi time allowances. Is this in another document or should I be logging everything in a civilian logbook?
Have only read the document very quickly but I cant see any mention of taxi time allowances. Is this in another document or should I be logging everything in a civilian logbook?
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SFO
When you next renew your licence it will indeed become an EASA document; the good bit is that you won't have to keep renewing that one.
You seem to be in the same position as a civilian cadet about to join an airline; once you have obtained a multi-pilot type rating and 1500 hrs PIC/PICUS, you can convert your licence to an ATPL.
When you next renew your licence it will indeed become an EASA document; the good bit is that you won't have to keep renewing that one.
You seem to be in the same position as a civilian cadet about to join an airline; once you have obtained a multi-pilot type rating and 1500 hrs PIC/PICUS, you can convert your licence to an ATPL.
Last edited by LFFC; 29th Jul 2012 at 22:52.
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Not sure where this requirement for '1500hrs PIC/PICUS' comes from - my reading of the regs tells me its 1500hrs TT, with 500hrs multi-pilot ops and 500hrs PICUS - unless I've read that wrong?
In other words, roughly half a Co's tour will qualify you for an ATPL, hours-wise - assuming you have the min requisite 100hrs PIC for a CPL to begin with... meaning all that is required is a multi-pilot type rating...
In other words, roughly half a Co's tour will qualify you for an ATPL, hours-wise - assuming you have the min requisite 100hrs PIC for a CPL to begin with... meaning all that is required is a multi-pilot type rating...
The ATPL prerequisites are:
FCL.510.A ATPL(A) – Prerequisites, experience and crediting
(a) Prerequisites. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall hold:
(a) Prerequisites. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall hold:
(1) an MPL; or
(2) a CPL(A) and a multi-engine IR for aeroplanes. In this case, the applicant shall also have received instruction in MCC.
(b) Experience. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall have completed a minimum of 1500 hours of flight time in aeroplanes, including at least:(2) a CPL(A) and a multi-engine IR for aeroplanes. In this case, the applicant shall also have received instruction in MCC.
(1) 500 hours in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes;
(2)
(4) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(5) 100 hours of night flight as PIC or co-pilot.
Of the 1500 hours of flight time, up to 100 hours of flight time may have been completed in an FFS and FNPT. Of these 100 hours, only a maximum of 25 hours may be completed in an FNPT.
(2)
(i) 500 hours as PIC under supervision; or
(ii) 250 hours as PIC; or
(iii) 250 hours, including at least 70 hours as PIC, and the remaining as PIC under supervision;
(3) 200 hours of cross-country flight time of which at least 100 hours shall be as PIC or as PIC under supervision;(ii) 250 hours as PIC; or
(iii) 250 hours, including at least 70 hours as PIC, and the remaining as PIC under supervision;
(4) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(5) 100 hours of night flight as PIC or co-pilot.
In summary....
So what is the overall corporate feeling regarding the MAS? Without wishing to direct anyone's views, would it be fair to say:
- The CPL accreditation achieved for immediate post-wings level pilots is welcomed.
- LAPL and PPL accreditation is inadequate.
- Significantly enhanced accreditation for experienced military pilots must be achieved, along the lines of the previous scheme which had been acceptable to the JAA for over 10 years.
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Sounds fair, and covers what would appear to be the major issues that I can see. Does this mean, though, that a CPL(H) is still reasonably easy to achieve for a QSP, Beags?
CPL(H) accreditation for the recently graduated QMP(H) would appear to be similar to CPL(A) accreditation for the recently graduated QMP(A).
However, significantly enhanced accreditation for 'experienced QSP(H)' pilots has not been achieved in the current MAS scheme and needs to be reinstated.
However, significantly enhanced accreditation for 'experienced QSP(H)' pilots has not been achieved in the current MAS scheme and needs to be reinstated.
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Many thanks,
LFFC and TI.
I do have an e-mail from FCL confirming that in order to upgrade to a full ATPL, I need to provide evidence of 500 hrs multi-pilot following the award of the CPL (I already have 7 times that number, but as my IR and LST were not on the mil type for which I used to claim the basic 2000 hrs requirement - Nimrod - I have to effectively start again with the hours). Not an ideal position but I appreciate that I am better off than some. If only I had listened to the hairy old Spec Aircrew bods when I was younger and got my LST/IR done on the Mighty 'rod whilst it was still in service.
Hey Ho. Best of luck to all those treading the license path!
I do have an e-mail from FCL confirming that in order to upgrade to a full ATPL, I need to provide evidence of 500 hrs multi-pilot following the award of the CPL (I already have 7 times that number, but as my IR and LST were not on the mil type for which I used to claim the basic 2000 hrs requirement - Nimrod - I have to effectively start again with the hours). Not an ideal position but I appreciate that I am better off than some. If only I had listened to the hairy old Spec Aircrew bods when I was younger and got my LST/IR done on the Mighty 'rod whilst it was still in service.
Hey Ho. Best of luck to all those treading the license path!