CAA Military Accreditation
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The French now complete all of the civilian exams as part of their initial pilot ground school.
Anyway, back to me; having obtained my CPL/IR under the Mil bridging scheme in January, I'm getting the uneasy feeling (without, admittedly, attempting to digest the CAP) that when I come to 'un-freeze my ATPL' in a few years, some robot at Aviation House is gonna say that I am 10 exams short.
Is this likely to be the case or am I being paranoid? There's a butt-load of us in the same sinking boat (HMS Pension Trap)
Ray
Anyway, back to me; having obtained my CPL/IR under the Mil bridging scheme in January, I'm getting the uneasy feeling (without, admittedly, attempting to digest the CAP) that when I come to 'un-freeze my ATPL' in a few years, some robot at Aviation House is gonna say that I am 10 exams short.
Is this likely to be the case or am I being paranoid? There's a butt-load of us in the same sinking boat (HMS Pension Trap)
Ray
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raytofclimb,
No need to worry. I'm in the same position as you and asked that very question to Flt Lt PH (CAA Liason officer). He spoke to the CAA and I received an E-mail response stating that there would be no issue when it comes to 'unfreezing' your ATPL despite having not completed all 14 Exams. (I only did the Mil bridging 4 exams for the issue of CPL/IR with MCC)
If you send me your 'INTRANET' address then I will send you a copy of the E-mail Trail.
Cheers,
ME110
No need to worry. I'm in the same position as you and asked that very question to Flt Lt PH (CAA Liason officer). He spoke to the CAA and I received an E-mail response stating that there would be no issue when it comes to 'unfreezing' your ATPL despite having not completed all 14 Exams. (I only did the Mil bridging 4 exams for the issue of CPL/IR with MCC)
If you send me your 'INTRANET' address then I will send you a copy of the E-mail Trail.
Cheers,
ME110
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Credit Report
Thanks to the FOIA, here is the credit report sent by the UK to EASA. It explains some of 22Gp and the CAA's rationale behind the new regulations. Worth a read, even if there's little that we can do about it.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...Report%20U.pdf
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...Report%20U.pdf
Thanks very much for that - it makes interesting reading.
What a damning indictment. In fact, the gaps caused by dumbing-down of EFT/BFT/AFT have increasingly had to be covered at OCU level, as I found some 12 years ago. It is clear to me that little consideration has been given to the equivalent levels of relevant knowledge achieved by the time a pilot would have reached the former 'Experienced QSP' state....
However, the statement
surely means that those of you with 2000 hrs of experience, 1500 as PIC of which 500 may be as PICU/S, should be able to insist that an extension to the scheme must now be achieved.
Agreed levels of equivalence between the TK acquired by military pilots throughout military flying training and subsequent operational experience, and those required at JAR-FCL ATPL (A) level, were established, but subsequent changes to military flying training and military pilot TK syllabi have not been fully considered or incorporated within the QSP scheme.
However, the statement
....a valid ‘cut-off point’ for relevant and equivalent TK training for QMPs is deemed to be the award of the flying badge.
The document is a bit of a dogs dinner. I can accept that the award of a flying badge (QSP) does not equate to anything close to an ATPL. What I cannot accept is that the scheme pretty much stops there.
What about OCU, 6 months+ of sqn work-up, post-graduate flying courses and years of practical experience whilst subject to numerous checks?
The arbitrary line-in-the-sand drawn at wings stage makes a mockery of the credit that was supposed to granted for military experience. This is just a scheme that recognises some of the flying training courses - it is an epic fail.
What about OCU, 6 months+ of sqn work-up, post-graduate flying courses and years of practical experience whilst subject to numerous checks?
The arbitrary line-in-the-sand drawn at wings stage makes a mockery of the credit that was supposed to granted for military experience. This is just a scheme that recognises some of the flying training courses - it is an epic fail.
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Gents,
As the good Sqn Ldr said in his email put these points in writing to him at 22Gp and they will consider them. Without their work so far there would be no scheme and you would be doing 70hrs flying + groundschool courses before exams.
Whilst I agree the current scheme does appear to fall way short of what we were hoping for I would like to believe it is still a work in progress and that those of us with 2000hrs QFI, IRE, QWI etc will get some just deserved recognition in due course!
As the good Sqn Ldr said in his email put these points in writing to him at 22Gp and they will consider them. Without their work so far there would be no scheme and you would be doing 70hrs flying + groundschool courses before exams.
Whilst I agree the current scheme does appear to fall way short of what we were hoping for I would like to believe it is still a work in progress and that those of us with 2000hrs QFI, IRE, QWI etc will get some just deserved recognition in due course!
So,
If I read this right, regardless of how you got your licence, be it JAR the exam route, JAR the bridging route or even CAA or JAR pre-bridging, we now have the situation that you can have a Military Pilot with a Military IRT who holds a Civilian Licence who can't even begin to train for a Civilian IR because he did the exams over three years ago. This not what the Military Accreditation Scheme is purported to foster. I know 22 Gp are on this, I have been a member of BALPA for many years, I shall see what their view is and let you know how I get on. Can't do any harm.
SL
If I read this right, regardless of how you got your licence, be it JAR the exam route, JAR the bridging route or even CAA or JAR pre-bridging, we now have the situation that you can have a Military Pilot with a Military IRT who holds a Civilian Licence who can't even begin to train for a Civilian IR because he did the exams over three years ago. This not what the Military Accreditation Scheme is purported to foster. I know 22 Gp are on this, I have been a member of BALPA for many years, I shall see what their view is and let you know how I get on. Can't do any harm.
SL
Whereas the previous system (see LASORS2010 section D3.1) stated:
the inadequate system proposed by 22Gp states:
In other words, nothing at OCU level or beyond has been assessed.
Similarly, where is the assessment for experience and skill achieved during years of 'subsequent operational experience'? Can someone give me a pointer.....??
In particular, the MCWG sought to determine an agreed
level of equivalence between the theoretical knowledge
acquired by pilots throughout military flying training and
subsequent operational experience, and those required at
JAR-FCL ATPL (A) level.
level of equivalence between the theoretical knowledge
acquired by pilots throughout military flying training and
subsequent operational experience, and those required at
JAR-FCL ATPL (A) level.
....a valid ‘cut-off point’ for relevant and equivalent TK training for QMPs is deemed to be the award of the flying badge.
Similarly, where is the assessment for experience and skill achieved during years of 'subsequent operational experience'? Can someone give me a pointer.....??
Last edited by BEagle; 13th Aug 2012 at 20:40.
The French now complete all of the civilian exams as part of their initial pilot ground school.
ALAT and Marine Nationale pilots are in the same situation as UK QSPs as their EFT/BFT is entirely a military syllabus, though the Marine Nationale pilots who get streamed ME do their ATPL exams during their tertiary training phase.
French MOD is able to get away with this partly because the French State still subsidises a national airline pilot school (ENAC) in Toulouse, so it is less contentious for the French MOD to train future airline pilots at public expense. The other part of their argument (more relevant to RAF) is that as Air Force and Navy transport pilots have to fly mostly to civilian rules in mostly civilian airspace it is sensible to incorporate the EASA syllabus into their training.
Marine Nationale FJ and RW pilots, and all ALAT pilots are in the same situation as UK QMPs.
Last edited by Trim Stab; 13th Aug 2012 at 20:54.
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Single vs Multi engine
The point that concerns me and I'm sure others who are or will be soon in a position to utilise this new system is this:
Graduates of BFJT or legacy courses SHALL undertake the skills test and IR in a single engine aeroplane.
Would someone in the know have an idea on the further implications of this when the quest for employment begins?
Graduates of BFJT or legacy courses SHALL undertake the skills test and IR in a single engine aeroplane.
Would someone in the know have an idea on the further implications of this when the quest for employment begins?
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Beagle,
Why would it when 22Gp responsibility for training stops before the OCU level? Looks like I was right in my previous post and only their part of the training system has been considered.
In other words, nothing at OCU level or beyond has been assessed.
LFFC
AFT has not been considered for fast jet aircrew, despite the fact that both halves of it are owned by 22 Gp. It looks like a straightforward cut-off of credit at wings award, which for FJ occurs at the end of BFT. Therefore it is not simply a 22 Gp ownership issue, rather an apparent policy decision that only training up to and including wings award would be considered.
I suspect it's a red herring that theoretical knowledge training post-wings is all type-specific: e.g. when do ME stream guys learn about oceanic procedures? I'll bet it's not on 45 Sqn.
Why would it when 22Gp responsibility for training stops before the OCU level? Looks like I was right in my previous post and only their part of the training system has been considered.
I suspect it's a red herring that theoretical knowledge training post-wings is all type-specific: e.g. when do ME stream guys learn about oceanic procedures? I'll bet it's not on 45 Sqn.
Last edited by Easy Street; 13th Aug 2012 at 21:58.
AFT has not been considered for fast jet aircrew, despite the fact that both halves of it are owned by 22 Gp.
Oceanic procedures and matters such as global HF communications are certainly taught and examined at ME OCUs / Trg Flts.
So, while it might be reasonable for some basic accreditation at 'wings' level, it is certainly not reasonable for no further accreditation to be granted to vastly more experienced pilots.
Ray and ME110,
You are nearly right in so much as your credit lasts for three years from the date of your last exam.....best you un-freeze your ticket before then.
SL
You are nearly right in so much as your credit lasts for three years from the date of your last exam.....best you un-freeze your ticket before then.
SL
I have just had an instructor rating added to my licence, which I was told is the first use of the new scheme for any licensing process since publication of AL1 to CAP 804.
Straightforward but don't forget you now also need to include a Form SRG 2133 with your application.
Just a shame that as a highly experienced ex mil instructor, Command IRE and CFS examiner I am now considered unable to instruct applied IF, night flying or aerobatics, nor operate without supervision. Unlike the old scheme which gave every privilege to any ex A2/1.
Straightforward but don't forget you now also need to include a Form SRG 2133 with your application.
Just a shame that as a highly experienced ex mil instructor, Command IRE and CFS examiner I am now considered unable to instruct applied IF, night flying or aerobatics, nor operate without supervision. Unlike the old scheme which gave every privilege to any ex A2/1.
Last edited by SammySu; 15th Aug 2012 at 10:23.
SammySu, sorry to read that. It pretty well sums up the utter inadequacy of the MAS in its current state.
However, you will be able to include an Aerobatic Rating after 17 Sep 2012 in accordance with CAP804 Section 4 Part P Page 32 which includes the credit already agreed for RAF pilots by those of us in the Aerobatic Rating Working Group who fought your case. You should also be able to conduct aerobatic instruction and/or night instuction in accordance with CAP804 Section 4 Part J, Subpart 1 Page 1 by demonstrating ability to a suitable FIC instructor (I suggest OnTrack Aviation as they are all experienced in sorting out military QFI problems).
I suggest you check with 22Gp to establish whether your previous supervisory experience will satisfy the 'removal of limitations' requirements described in CAP804 Section 4 Part J, Subpart 1 Page 3.
AOPA have already suggested a way ahead for 'applied IF' instructional privileges at IMC rating / IR(R) level, but the CAA are not prepared to broker the case with EASA until the results of the FCL.800 NPA are known.
It really is utterly crazy that your undoubted qualifications are not better recognised and I hope that this daftness can be resolved. Is Cmdt CFS aware of the situation?
However, you will be able to include an Aerobatic Rating after 17 Sep 2012 in accordance with CAP804 Section 4 Part P Page 32 which includes the credit already agreed for RAF pilots by those of us in the Aerobatic Rating Working Group who fought your case. You should also be able to conduct aerobatic instruction and/or night instuction in accordance with CAP804 Section 4 Part J, Subpart 1 Page 1 by demonstrating ability to a suitable FIC instructor (I suggest OnTrack Aviation as they are all experienced in sorting out military QFI problems).
I suggest you check with 22Gp to establish whether your previous supervisory experience will satisfy the 'removal of limitations' requirements described in CAP804 Section 4 Part J, Subpart 1 Page 3.
AOPA have already suggested a way ahead for 'applied IF' instructional privileges at IMC rating / IR(R) level, but the CAA are not prepared to broker the case with EASA until the results of the FCL.800 NPA are known.
It really is utterly crazy that your undoubted qualifications are not better recognised and I hope that this daftness can be resolved. Is Cmdt CFS aware of the situation?
Last edited by BEagle; 15th Aug 2012 at 10:24.
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In simple terms...
So, to summarise.
If one were to have 3500 hrs, >1000 hrs heavy jet this is of no benefit over blogs who has just finished Linton?
No need for residential Cse?
So 14 exams can be achieved by borrowing a mate's books, absorbing the question bank and pitching up to the exams? Also, £500 for Bristol gs electronic Training software - is it worth it?
Then...
IR on military jet plus medical and the licence is yours - or not?
If one were to have 3500 hrs, >1000 hrs heavy jet this is of no benefit over blogs who has just finished Linton?
No need for residential Cse?
So 14 exams can be achieved by borrowing a mate's books, absorbing the question bank and pitching up to the exams? Also, £500 for Bristol gs electronic Training software - is it worth it?
Then...
IR on military jet plus medical and the licence is yours - or not?
Not much point bothering about the 'no aerobatics' restriction before 17 Sep - there's nothing in law to stop you teaching aeros before then, no matter what it says in your FI rating.
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Sloppy Link,
You are getting 2 seperate issues mixed up.
You are correct in saying that you have 36 months from completing your last exam to be issued with your CPL and IR.
However-
What I am talking about is that once you have your CPL/IR with MCC - i.e 'Frozen ATPL' (obtained under the old Military Exemption Scheme with only 4 exams completed instead of 14) then when it comes to unfreezing it in the future to full ATPL there is no issue/time limit. i.e the CAA are not going to turn round and say where are the missing 10 exams.
.
I have an E-mail Trail from the CAA stating this.
You are getting 2 seperate issues mixed up.
You are correct in saying that you have 36 months from completing your last exam to be issued with your CPL and IR.
However-
What I am talking about is that once you have your CPL/IR with MCC - i.e 'Frozen ATPL' (obtained under the old Military Exemption Scheme with only 4 exams completed instead of 14) then when it comes to unfreezing it in the future to full ATPL there is no issue/time limit. i.e the CAA are not going to turn round and say where are the missing 10 exams.
.
I have an E-mail Trail from the CAA stating this.
Echo BillieBob - there is no "aerobatic rating" in UK so there is no need to be qualified as an "aerobatic instructor" to teach aeros. An instructor and student can do whatever they want in a suitable aircraft as long as the student is willing to pay.
The "aerobatic instructor" restriction is only really relevant to countries (such as France) which have an "aerobatic rating". To obtain an "aerobatic rating", a student has to be taught by a suitably qualified instructor.
But it is still all a bit daft really. Even in France a PPL can be taught aeros by an "unqualified" instructor, and then go and fly aeros solo or even with pax - who is ever going to know? There are plenty of ex-FAF pilots topping up their wallets at aero-clubs over France instructing aeros, many without even a basic FI(A) instructor rating.
The "aerobatic instructor" restriction is only really relevant to countries (such as France) which have an "aerobatic rating". To obtain an "aerobatic rating", a student has to be taught by a suitably qualified instructor.
But it is still all a bit daft really. Even in France a PPL can be taught aeros by an "unqualified" instructor, and then go and fly aeros solo or even with pax - who is ever going to know? There are plenty of ex-FAF pilots topping up their wallets at aero-clubs over France instructing aeros, many without even a basic FI(A) instructor rating.