CAA Military Accreditation
Awesome! Very happy to know that all those years of professionalism and training, as well as hard won experience, count for nothing then.
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BEagle,
You make a very valid point about retention - from a purely Army perspective not only is there no Bridging light at the end of the tunnel now but most young pilots (particularly NCOs) also have the prospect of the impeding change to pensions. I know of quite a few on the AH Force who have already said there's no point going beyond 12-14 years but they would stay to build up their hours for bridging. There'll be quite a few doing the 7 clicks to freedom on JPA in the next couple of years I'd wager.
Thank god I bridged when I did.
You make a very valid point about retention - from a purely Army perspective not only is there no Bridging light at the end of the tunnel now but most young pilots (particularly NCOs) also have the prospect of the impeding change to pensions. I know of quite a few on the AH Force who have already said there's no point going beyond 12-14 years but they would stay to build up their hours for bridging. There'll be quite a few doing the 7 clicks to freedom on JPA in the next couple of years I'd wager.
Thank god I bridged when I did.
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I agree. I can see people doing the time it takes them to enjoy an early career in the RAF, then leaving at their 1st exit option, in order to pursue a second career in the Civvy market. Have a quality of job experience first, then a quality of life experience second! It will undoubtably lead to an erosion of experience in an already eroded Service. This, as previously mentioned, coupled with changes to the pension scheme - with no choice of joining this new scheme or not, could result in a pretty bleak outlook for some.
That said, the quality of flying wil still keep a lot of people in beyond options, although the lure of PAS seems to be retreating with, I suspect, very few offers to transfer to PAS over the next few years.....
That said, the quality of flying wil still keep a lot of people in beyond options, although the lure of PAS seems to be retreating with, I suspect, very few offers to transfer to PAS over the next few years.....
Last edited by wokkamate; 27th Jul 2012 at 11:51.
With 22 Gp itself expressing such low confidence in our training and experience - we even have to do a PPL skills test now FFS - shouldn't EASA be concerned that British military pilots are allowed to share controlled airspace with civil traffic?
I believe that a number of European air forces make their basic pilot qualifications compliant with civil licensing rules (groundschool exams, etc), which presumably makes their transition somewhat easier. I don't know how we justify the current dumbed-down situation, especially in the dreaded "risk to life" registers.
I believe that a number of European air forces make their basic pilot qualifications compliant with civil licensing rules (groundschool exams, etc), which presumably makes their transition somewhat easier. I don't know how we justify the current dumbed-down situation, especially in the dreaded "risk to life" registers.
Last edited by Easy Street; 27th Jul 2012 at 11:59.
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I've read through the CAP804 and just wanted to clarify what I need to do please!!! Its very confusing!
I'm a current green rated C130J operator with about 3500hrs total and about 1500hrs Captain.
As I read it I need to do :
* Class 1 Med
* All 14 Exams - Do I need to do a crammer course or can I just take the exams without the course?
* Do a skills test with a TRE - can this be done on a C130J or will I need to do this at a civilian school?
Thanks in advance for your help
Wides
I'm a current green rated C130J operator with about 3500hrs total and about 1500hrs Captain.
As I read it I need to do :
* Class 1 Med
* All 14 Exams - Do I need to do a crammer course or can I just take the exams without the course?
* Do a skills test with a TRE - can this be done on a C130J or will I need to do this at a civilian school?
Thanks in advance for your help
Wides
Last edited by theboywide; 27th Jul 2012 at 12:44.
Wides,
The MAS completely fails to recognise that your experience and skill obviates the need for theoretical exams, unlike the previous scheme. In addition, you can only open a part-FCL pilot licence with an 'EASA' aeroplane type or class.
According to CAP 747, the Lockheed 'Hercules L382G' is an 'EASA aeroplane', whereas there is no listing for the L382J (C-130J).....
There will be precious few people able to 'benefit' from the terms of 3.5, although whoopy-doo, you won't need to do a crammer and can attempt all those expensive exams with self-study alone.
So I guess that if the C-130J is considered an 'EASA' aeroplane and if you can find a TRE qualified on type, you might be OK? Put the question to 22Gp!
There is some daft school of thought which thinks that, having passed all those exams, you could approach an airline and ask to open an ATPL after completing type rating training with them. But would any airline entertain that nonsense idea? If you can even convince them to do your Type Rating, would you be able to convince them to wait for the Belgrano to send you a licence?
Whilst the new MAS opens the door to a licence for those poor sods booted out after Cameron's defence cuts, it is of damn-all use to most squadron pilots. Once you've achieved 70hrs PIC (or PICU/S) and an Unrestricted Green Rating, there isn't much point in staying on once you've passed the ATPL exams as they have a time limit towards the IR(A).....
MoD's guilt of involuntary military redundancy at the bottom end might have been assuaged by part O; however, the new MAS is a kick in the teeth for long-serving, highly experienced military aircrew...
The MAS completely fails to recognise that your experience and skill obviates the need for theoretical exams, unlike the previous scheme. In addition, you can only open a part-FCL pilot licence with an 'EASA' aeroplane type or class.
According to CAP 747, the Lockheed 'Hercules L382G' is an 'EASA aeroplane', whereas there is no listing for the L382J (C-130J).....
There will be precious few people able to 'benefit' from the terms of 3.5, although whoopy-doo, you won't need to do a crammer and can attempt all those expensive exams with self-study alone.
The skill test will be conducted by the holder of a Type Rating Examiner (TRE) Certificate for the aeroplane type, issued under Part-FCL, in:
• an appropriate multi-pilot type of military aeroplane on which the applicant is or has been qualified to operate as a QMP, suitably equipped for the purpose, which has an EASA civilian equivalent; or
• an appropriate multi-pilot type of civilian aeroplane provided the applicant has completed the Part-FCL requirements for inclusion of that type with IR in a Part-FCL licence except the type rating skill test.
• an appropriate multi-pilot type of military aeroplane on which the applicant is or has been qualified to operate as a QMP, suitably equipped for the purpose, which has an EASA civilian equivalent; or
• an appropriate multi-pilot type of civilian aeroplane provided the applicant has completed the Part-FCL requirements for inclusion of that type with IR in a Part-FCL licence except the type rating skill test.
There is some daft school of thought which thinks that, having passed all those exams, you could approach an airline and ask to open an ATPL after completing type rating training with them. But would any airline entertain that nonsense idea? If you can even convince them to do your Type Rating, would you be able to convince them to wait for the Belgrano to send you a licence?
Whilst the new MAS opens the door to a licence for those poor sods booted out after Cameron's defence cuts, it is of damn-all use to most squadron pilots. Once you've achieved 70hrs PIC (or PICU/S) and an Unrestricted Green Rating, there isn't much point in staying on once you've passed the ATPL exams as they have a time limit towards the IR(A).....
MoD's guilt of involuntary military redundancy at the bottom end might have been assuaged by part O; however, the new MAS is a kick in the teeth for long-serving, highly experienced military aircrew...
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Jul 2012 at 13:48.
There are some throwaway lines about "BFJT graduates" taking their IRs in single-pilot single-engine aircraft. It uses the qualifier "shall," which worried me a section.
As a BFJT graduate and FJ-only pilot, is this expressly stopping me from taking a regular civil ME IR in a light twin as many colleagues have in the past?
The steps from an FJ job to an ATPL now appear to be same; sit all the exams (although you can self study and sit them yourself, rather than paying for a crammer course), then do a civilian IR?
As a BFJT graduate and FJ-only pilot, is this expressly stopping me from taking a regular civil ME IR in a light twin as many colleagues have in the past?
The steps from an FJ job to an ATPL now appear to be same; sit all the exams (although you can self study and sit them yourself, rather than paying for a crammer course), then do a civilian IR?
So that last-ditch effort from the team thrown together at 22Gp has achieved close to nothing. I know a couple of the guys involved and I am sure they tried their best, but this is bordering on madness.
Or is it the case that 22Gp proposed more for us, but were beaten back by the CAA?
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Having read though it all, it appears, in plain language that you need:
- 70hrs PIC / PICUS / P1 non-Capt (Nimrod P1 / Copilot p1?) logged in your military logbook
- Class 1 medical
- Pass all 14 exams, no need for a formal cse
- Rock up at a FTO and complete whatever training they think you need, no need for a formal cse
- Pass skill test and IRT
- Apply for licence (assuming you meet the full requirements as laid down in part-FCL)
Effectively, as long as you have passed an OCU, and logged 70 hrs p1, the door is open?
Is that interpretation correct?
- 70hrs PIC / PICUS / P1 non-Capt (Nimrod P1 / Copilot p1?) logged in your military logbook
- Class 1 medical
- Pass all 14 exams, no need for a formal cse
- Rock up at a FTO and complete whatever training they think you need, no need for a formal cse
- Pass skill test and IRT
- Apply for licence (assuming you meet the full requirements as laid down in part-FCL)
Effectively, as long as you have passed an OCU, and logged 70 hrs p1, the door is open?
Is that interpretation correct?
It matches mine. Ironically, as an FJ guy with no chance of qualifying via a military IRT and being short of the 2000hrs mark, I think it actually makes it easier for me....!
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Seems to make it alot easier for me too - I have very low PIC hrs (on manned aircraft, at least!) so didn't qualify for ANY credit under the old scheme - now it appears that I don't have to do a formal CPL / IR course.
Plus, the credits appear to be 'lifetime' - the old scheme gave you up to a year after leaving the service, but no mention of time-limits in the new scheme? More good news for me...
Plus, the credits appear to be 'lifetime' - the old scheme gave you up to a year after leaving the service, but no mention of time-limits in the new scheme? More good news for me...
Or is it the case that 22Gp proposed more for us, but were beaten back by the CAA?
Having watched our training system atrophy over the last decade or so I wonder if this paints the professional military pilot in the best light.
The loss of the 'Experienced QSP' accreditation reminds me of the old Roger Bacon story about an RAF VC10 captain applying for an ATPL. Thus spoke the Belgranist: "Good, now that you've passed all our exams, we just need you to pop over to do an 1179. Next week OK?"
"Sorry, I can't do it then. I'm flying the Queen back from Australia", came the reply....
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Jul 2012 at 16:08.
I seem to remember you posting, BEagle, that it would be almost entirely up to each country's agency to decide what credits should be given for military experience, and in our case, the CAA had devolved it entirely to 22Gp.
So we can assume that 22Gp could have written almost anything for the MAS, and therefore the loss of experienced QSP accreditation is entirely down to them?
So we can assume that 22Gp could have written almost anything for the MAS, and therefore the loss of experienced QSP accreditation is entirely down to them?
5F6B, the main issue with accreditation for experienced QSPs would seem to be that anything less than passing all the exams and flying a Skill Test might require recognition of assimilation of 'need to know' knowledge by practical experience and acceptance of test standards / qualifications of tests conducted by military instructors / examiners....... Something hard to do - allegedly.
Gone are the days when A2 / Master Green / IRE was considered God-like, it would appear.
You will have to ask 22Gp why they didn't insist on the retention of the 'experienced QSP' accreditation. However, should this now lead to a rush of experienced people PVR'ing, then perhaps the question will come from on high within the Service?
Although it is not possible to include a non-EASA aircraft Type Rating in a part-FCL licence, I do not know whether anyone actually put the suggestion to EASA that 'appropriate military aircraft which do not have civil equivalents' could be used for the initial issue of a part-FCL pilot licence, as was the situation under JAR-FCL. My guess is that they probably did not.
Gone are the days when A2 / Master Green / IRE was considered God-like, it would appear.
You will have to ask 22Gp why they didn't insist on the retention of the 'experienced QSP' accreditation. However, should this now lead to a rush of experienced people PVR'ing, then perhaps the question will come from on high within the Service?
Although it is not possible to include a non-EASA aircraft Type Rating in a part-FCL licence, I do not know whether anyone actually put the suggestion to EASA that 'appropriate military aircraft which do not have civil equivalents' could be used for the initial issue of a part-FCL pilot licence, as was the situation under JAR-FCL. My guess is that they probably did not.
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Jul 2012 at 16:30.
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Culpability
I really don't see how any of us can legally operate in any kind of controlled airspace or even utilise air traffic services. We're just not trained or qualified ...it certainly begs the question of who would be culpable in the event of an incident.
There are some throwaway lines about "BFJT graduates" taking their IRs in single-pilot single-engine aircraft. It uses the qualifier "shall," which worried me a section.
If you already hold CPL(A) with MEP Class Rating, then you should be able to include an IR(A) in your licence under the same terms which apply to any other civil pilot licence holder.
Nevertheless, please forward your question to 22Gp!
Nevertheless, please forward your question to 22Gp!