CAA Military Accreditation

[High_Expect]

+ still a little bit pissed that as a 1700+ FJ mate/A2 QFI that is able to issue unrestricted ratings to ab-initio students with around 200hrs in their logbooks to fly solo in class A airspace- I'm treated like a school leaver in all but a few weeks of groundschool when it comes to applying for my licences.

If the CAA would kindly like to make their case as to why I'm so under qualified in aviation as to effectively do the whole lot. Perhaps I'm not qualified enough to be mixing it up with the airliners on a daily basis. Should we not all ground ourselves for the safety of joe public. Or perhaps I should NOTAM my two airways sorties tomorrow?

[artyhug]

If you're going anywhere near me 'Splinter' then please make sure you do... ;-)

[R-A-F-Off]

High Expect - The rules as they're currently written mean that you have to do both the CPL and IR Skills Test in a single first now.

[blagger]

VigilantPilot - the point I think is that civvies do the course, mil are exempt the course and only have to do brush up sufficient to take the test. What the new accreditation is saying is that they deem FJ to cover the SE CPL IR course requirements but not the ME CPL IR elements.

[R-A-F-Off]

I just don't understand why the rules have been written this way either. Surely "training as required" on a Multi would suffice given that you can't pass if you don't make the grade. This one line has made it all a lot more expensive for FJ types.

[High_Expect]

I just can't understand that decision! Surely the pass mark is just that. I fully appreciate that there will be some new skills I'll have to learn but honestly it's not rocket science - I've met a lot of multi mates ;-)

What are they achieving by making me do both?

Right game on. In cold to the SE skills test!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

So I have to get a CPL on a single engined aircraft, then add a multi engine rating to it....? Why? Would make sense if they were crediting the skills test etc but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Actually, isn't it now simpler and easier to get a CPL by just starting from scratch and pretending you don't have any military experience? At least then I could go straight in to the ME side of things.

[Trim Stab]

So I have to get a CPL on a single engined aircraft, then add a multi engine rating to it....? Why? Would make sense if they were crediting the skills test etc but it doesn't appear to be the case.

No, this is not true. You can do your CPL skill test on a twin-engine aircraft as long as the FTO has the required approval. You will find that most FTOs that have DA42s in their training fleet have this approval. You would have to do the MEP course (five hours - which would also serve as familiarisation on DA42), then do the CPL/MEP skills test in one flight, then IR/ME SP skill test. So in theory you could get your CPL, MEP and IR/ME SP with about eight hours in a DA42.

Incidentally, has anybody ever tried applying to an FTO in another EASA administration? An application would be handled on its individual merits, rather than being squeezed through a complex seive of multiple national regulations. You might end up having to do less retraining. Plenty of ex-mil pilots from francophone countries get their EASA licences from French FTOs. I can't see why ex UK QMPs should be treated any differently.

[blagger]

Trim Stab - Part O accreditation clearly states that you must apply to the Member State in which you served, it is not portable to other countries

[BEagle]

Incidentally, has anybody ever tried applying to an FTO in another EASA administration?

Unfortunately the €urocrats have ordained, in Article 10 of the Aircrew Regulation, that

In order for holders of military flight crew licences to obtain Part-FCL licences, they shall apply to the Member State where they served.

So for a UK military pilot to apply to an ATO outside the UK might prove problematic.

Edit - you beat me to it, blagger!

I'm still furious about the way that EASA failed to uphold the assurances concerning military accreditation which they gave us at the 2008 part-FCL Working Group meeting at Gatwick....

I wonder whether the following sequence was ever mooted:

1. Issue a CAA exemption allowing 'appropriate military aircraft' to be deemed acceptable for the initial issue of a UK ATPL.
2. Continue to recognise the former 'experienced QSP' accreditation in full.
3. Issue a UK ATPL initially, then convert it to a part-FCL ATPL once the applicant has completed a Class or Type Rating on an EASA aircraft.

In addition, perhaps a Regulation 14(4) exemption should be proposed, allowing UK military pilots to open a part-FCL ATPL with an 'appropriate military type'?

[Trim Stab]

Unfortunately the €urocrats have ordained, in Article 10 of the Aircrew Regualtion, that
Quote:
In order for holders of military flight crew licences to obtain Part-FCL licences, they shall apply to the Member State where they served.
So for a UK military pilot to apply to an ATO outside the UK might prove problematic.

BEagle - yes I saw that you posted that earlier. But surely that is only relevant if a QMP is seeking automatic accreditation for their experience (eg only a UK QMP can get automatic accreditation at a UK FTO).

What legal impediment is there to stop a UK QMP applying to a non-UK EASA FTO? I suspect that their application would be treated on individual merit. For example, in France, even French QMPs do not have "automatic" rights - they have to submit their logbooks to an FTO, the FTO submits a file to the DGAC, and the DGAC sends back to the FTO a minimum syllabus. This is the same for non-EASA QMPs who apply to French FTOs (eg ex Algerian Air Force etc).

I can't see why a British QMP would be treated any differently. I'm willing to make a preliminary enquiry at my local French FTO if anybody wants to at least explore the option.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

No, this is not true. You can do your CPL skill test on a twin-engine aircraft as long as the FTO has the required approval. You will find that most FTOs that have DA42s in their training fleet have this approval.

Thanks for the clarification, Trim Stab; I did see the comment that:

"The skill test(s) will be conducted by the holder of a Flight Examiner Certificate issued in accordance with Part-FCL, in,
• an appropriate class or type of military aeroplane, suitably equipped for the purpose, which has an EASA civilian equivalent class or type, or
• a civilian aeroplane of the appropriate class following training to the satisfaction of the Head of Training of an ATO, Or
• an appropriate type of civilian aeroplane provided the applicant has completed the Part-FCL requirements for inclusion of that type in a Part-FCL licence except the type rating skill test."

... so I presume that overrides the "BFJT graduates shall use a SE/SP aircraft" line. Presumably it's the "satisfaction of the Head of Training of an ATO" line that's important, as otherwise you'd need to satisfy the third bullet point, negating your Part O credits?

If I now understand that correctly, they perhaps could have written it in a slightly clearer manner...!

[Trim Stab]

Yes, you are correct - the second bullet point covers the option of taking the skills test on a MEP. You just need to find an ATO which has an approved CPL program on MEPs (which in reality means DA42 since it would be uncompetively expensive on any other aircraft).

[High_Expect]

Next few questions.... (hoping that TrimStab is correct and that as a FJ mate I can do ATPL Theory then direct to a MEP course for MEP Skills test + IR.)

Does anyone know a good FTO with Ex Mil FIs that have a DA42?

Also what is the option for doing the ATPL theory credit (all 14 exams) then doing just the skills test for the issue of the CPL SEP. Once you have the CPL (with ATPL credit) could you just do the expensive MEP Skills test and IR at a latter date >36months time? Or is this not allowed?

As I see it my options now are:

1. Theory credits, MCC, MEP Skills Test/IR. Sit on a CPL MEP/IR

2. Theory credits, MEP Skills test. Sit on a CPL. (could I then just do a direct MEP IR say 5years down the line or would I need another exam credit?)

3. Theory credit, SEP Skills test and IR. Sit on a SEP CPL/IR (could I then just add a MEP rating and IR at a later date >36mths without another ATPL theory credit?)

Ultimately I want to do the exams now (only once) get a licence that means I can do the expensive MEP IR at a latter date >36mths when I can use a gratuity. Is this possible? I could struggle through CAP804 all night and still not find the answers but lots of you probably already know the answers to my FUNGUS questions.

Thanks in advance.

[SAR Bloke]

The IR requirement specifically states that a 'BFJT' graduate shall take the IR in a single-engined aircraft. As I read it, to get a ME IR, using the military credits, you have to do a SE IR and then conduct the ME IR conversion course and subsequent further IRT.

I can't see how doing a few hours in a DA42 (or any twin aircraft) satisfies the single-engine requirement.

p.s. why the obsession with the DA 42?

[Easy Street]

The 'military' bit gets you off some or all of the mandated flying training. After some careful reading of CAP 804 I offer the following thoughts:

A FJ pilot can go straight into a SE CPL and then SE IR(A) skills test without any training, using the military credits. Then, he can do a ME class rating (6 hours' flying, first quote below) and become eligible to train for a ME IR(A) using the standard civilian 'crossover' rules (second quote, below). I wonder if an enlightened FTO could roll all this ME trg together into one 6-hour package?

The flight training course for a single-pilot multi-engine class or type rating shall include at least 2 hours and 30 minutes of dual flight instruction under normal conditions of multi-engine aeroplane operations, and not less than 3 hours 30 minutes of dual flight instruction in engine failure procedures and asymmetric flight techniques.

9 The holder of a single-engine IR(A) who also holds a multi-engine class or type rating wishing to obtain a multi-engine IR(A) for the first time shall complete a course at an ATO comprising at least 5 hours instruction in instrument flying in multi-engine aeroplanes, of which 3 hours may be in an FFS or FNPT II.

If a FJ pilot elects to go straight for a ME CPL and IR, none of the military exemptions apply and the standard civilian rules must be followed. For a start, this means that a PPL(A) must be obtained as a civvy cannot start a CPL course without one. So chalk up some puddlejumping practice and a PPL test. Now add a ME class rating to that PPL. Now do the standard civvy CPL training course (which will be expensive if you do it all in a ME aircraft) and the CPL skills test. Onto the ME IR:

8. A multi-engine IR(A) course shall comprise at least 55 hours instrument time under instruction, of which up to 25 hours may be instrument ground time in an FNPT I, or up to 40 hours in an FFS or FNPT II. A maximum of 10 hours of FNPT II or an FFS instrument ground time may be conducted in an FNPT I. The remaining instrument flight instruction shall include at least 15 hours in multi-engine aeroplanes.

10.1 The holder of a CPL(A) or of a Course Completion Certificate for the Basic Instrument Flight Module may have the total amount of training required in paragraphs 7 or 8 above reduced by 10 hours.

Ouch! I suggest that the latter path is pointless - you might as well grit your teeth and take a SE CPL and IR to make use of the military training credit. This unlocks a much quicker route to ME CPL and IR (6-12 hours, vs 60-70 hrs?).

The source reading for all this is CAP804 Section 4 Parts H and L (Appendices 3 and 6).

[High_Expect]

Thanks - I guess it's my own fault for being a low average fast jet mate.

Ok my next question.

If I use the Military credits to do the exams (ATPL credit) then do a SEP Skills test and IR thus gaining a SEP CPL IR does this "Lock In" my ATPL theory credit? Could I then do a MEP conversion, Skills Test and IR say 5 years later without doing the exams again?

I guess I could let he CPL lapse and just do another Skills test again a few years down the line before doing the 6-12hrs MEP bits.

[Trim Stab]

If I use the Military credits to do the exams (ATPL credit) then do a SEP Skills test and IR thus gaining a SEP CPL IR does this "Lock In" my ATPL theory credit? Could I then do a MEP conversion, Skills Test and IR say 5 years later without doing the exams again?

Yes. After issue of ATPL exams certificate you have three years to do CPL, and seven years to do your IR.

I guess I could let he CPL lapse and just do another Skills test again a few years down the line before doing the 6-12hrs MEP bits.

CPL does not "lapse". It is a licence so is valid for life (as long as you maintain current on some sort of aircraft class - the cheapest option being SEP).

You could just do CPL on SEP and then leave the MEP and IR/ME until you really need a job. But probably wise (given the way they move the goalposts) to get CPL and IR/SE and keep them current every year until you are ready to do the MEP, IR/ME/SP and MCC.

To keep your SEP and IR/SE current you would just have to do an annual IR/SE checkride which is not too onerous

Yes, I don't see the fascination with DA42. I've known mates complete CPLs in King Air and Cessna Dutchess to name a couple.

I've never heard of a JAR FTO offering CPL on a King Air - they'd need a lot of wealthy clients to survive! I don't know of an FTO even using Dutchess for CPL training (though plenty use them for IR/ME). For CPL, the course offered by an FTO has to be approved by the authority on a specific aircraft so FTOs will only go to the bother of getting a course authorised on an economically viable type. As far as I know the only MEP that has proven to be viable for a combined MEP/CPL course is DA42.

[High_Expect]

Thanks Trim Stab.

I'll probably do as you recommend SEP CPL/IR and save the MEP rating and IR until say 6mths before my exit date.

Whilst I can find info in the CAP relating to renewing a lapsed IR ie. Training with an ATO up to the equivalent standard to pass the initial test, I can't find anything relating to renewing a lapsed CPL ie. I didn't keep a class rating for a part-FCL licence. Is it the same as the IR? ( I don't plan to do the 12hrs + 1 with an FI in 2 years)

Ultimately what I want to do is: ATPL exams SEP CPL & IR then not do anything with it for about 6years (I'll be current on Mil SE and Twin Jet with Green Unrest IR, but not flying a SEP - not that it appears to count for anything) then pick up where I left off, renew my SEP CPL/IR then go down the MEP rating & IR + MCC + some luck = job. I don't, however, want to do the ATPL exams twice. If its is not possible I'll just wait until nearer the time. I'm just keen to do them now as my brain is in study mode and my current job would allow the study time/leave.

Thanks for the replies so far.

For the record i've no massive infatuation with the DA42, it's just reasonably priced and has a modern glass cockpit - something I'm familiar with.

[blagger]

The CAA aircraft approval lark has just been withdrawn see IN-2012/068 and it is up to the FTO to make sure the aircraft they use are adequate.

Beech Duchess, Piper Seneca / Seminole and DA42 are all used by a variety of FTOs for MEP/CPL training - see PAT Bournemouth, Multiflight, Atlantic Flight Training respectively for examples of each!

Anyone wanting a reasonable, hassle free PPL or just SEP rating issue or renewal from a 24/7 operating RAF flying club feel free to PM me!