Procrastination on Syria
Not to mention Fallujah (when the yanks went ape), numerous forays into Gaza (IDF), and Janin (while the world was distracted by the WTC same day) - oh, and just who is doing these acts becomes even more disgusting when the possibility of proxy groups is considered (eg MEK trained by Mossad in Iran).
It's a dirty business - we should not rush headlong in the direction we are being pointed without getting the whole picture - oh that we had a good intelligence service that was acting purely in the interests of the British people.
It's a dirty business - we should not rush headlong in the direction we are being pointed without getting the whole picture - oh that we had a good intelligence service that was acting purely in the interests of the British people.
My fellow yanks did go ape in Fallujah, but it would seem they avoided mass rapes, torture and slaughter of women and children as well as the combatants themselves, at least somewhat unavoidable slaughter. I'm sure the operation and it's participants weren't perfect, but in our US society today, we would have heard about it if we behaved like a modern day Eizengruppen.
As for Janin, it is spelled Jenin, and while I have no apologies or real knowledge of the situation, the flattening of that town occurred 1 year after September 11, not the same day.
We are in agreement that a countries citizens should have a clear understanding of the issues involved, Kuwaiti babies getting tossed out of incubators by Iragi soldiers does ring a bell, getting the real story is the tough part.
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Whatsa..
I was not referring to the "Battle" of Jenin that went on early April 2002 - I was referring to the major incursion that occurred simultaneously with 911.
If the timing was intended so as to use WTC event as a distraction then it certainly worked in your case.
Like a lot of people, I was listening to the radio that night (Western Australia time) for more developments on the WTC attack: the BBC then reported the Jenin operation; the commentators sounded perplexed - one said something like "Could this have been a knee-jerk reaction to the WTC attack?" - the other replied something like "No, the tanks and bulldozers had been mustering for 3 days and then waited for about 10 hours, beginning the operation when news of the WTC attacks came through".
Do you really want to trade notes on Fallujah?
I was not referring to the "Battle" of Jenin that went on early April 2002 - I was referring to the major incursion that occurred simultaneously with 911.
If the timing was intended so as to use WTC event as a distraction then it certainly worked in your case.
Like a lot of people, I was listening to the radio that night (Western Australia time) for more developments on the WTC attack: the BBC then reported the Jenin operation; the commentators sounded perplexed - one said something like "Could this have been a knee-jerk reaction to the WTC attack?" - the other replied something like "No, the tanks and bulldozers had been mustering for 3 days and then waited for about 10 hours, beginning the operation when news of the WTC attacks came through".
Do you really want to trade notes on Fallujah?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Good point - what's going on in Bahrain is real bad - but the main media doesn't make so much of it like it does for Syria.
Fallujah: Widely written that the behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen.
Kuwait: After all the dust had settled it was admitted by the Kuwaiti government that the babies in incubators stories were not true but had been deliberately put about to increase sympathy to the Kuwait people. What doesn't get talked about so much is the number of foreign maids that were left in Kuwait by their employers, without any documentation and who the Iraqis then took to Iraq, some managed to get home after the resumption of hostilities in 2003, many are still listed as 'missing'.
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Parabellum
<< ... behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen.>>
A man of your calibre should surely acknowledge the circumstances that led up to this local conflict.
First though, you were referring to the contractors who were shot to death in their vehicles? Granted their bodies were treated disrespectfully but then there was a great deal of hatred for such contractors (remember video clips of some tossing grenades casually and shooting indiscriminately at innocent civs from their vehicles?).
Now, after the toppling of Saddam, Fallujah was not immediately hostile to Americans and, thanks to good community government, was stable and functional much as we are hoping that the whole of Iraq may be like some day - however, the Americans stomped in and caused much upset - the resultant street protests were dealt with so brutally as to make the Syrian government look like it is using kid gloves.
<< ... behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen.>>
A man of your calibre should surely acknowledge the circumstances that led up to this local conflict.
First though, you were referring to the contractors who were shot to death in their vehicles? Granted their bodies were treated disrespectfully but then there was a great deal of hatred for such contractors (remember video clips of some tossing grenades casually and shooting indiscriminately at innocent civs from their vehicles?).
Now, after the toppling of Saddam, Fallujah was not immediately hostile to Americans and, thanks to good community government, was stable and functional much as we are hoping that the whole of Iraq may be like some day - however, the Americans stomped in and caused much upset - the resultant street protests were dealt with so brutally as to make the Syrian government look like it is using kid gloves.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Not sure where they're being deployed from.
I do remember back in the 1970s the they had a permanent presence moored at the "Cyprus Buoy" south of Larnaca that the aircraft going back from firing on the banner used to beat up. Supposedly it had enough armoured vehicles and marines to reach and evacuate the embassy in Nicosia in the event of any problems.
I would imagine the size of the Russian embassy in Damascus would need two ships worth to evacuate all the personnel, documents and equipment they couldn't destroy.
Torygraph: Home»News»World News»Middle East»SyriaRussia 'sending warships to Syria'
Russia is preparing to send two amphibious assault ships to the Syrian port of Tartus according to the Interfax news agency.
The move is seen as an attempt to ensure the safety of Russian nationals stationed at the strategic naval base Moscow operates on Syria's Mediterranean coast.
An unidentified officer confirmed that "Two major amphibious ships – The Nikolai Filchenkov and The Tsezar Kunikov – are preparing to be dispatched to Tartus outside of their schedule."
It is believed the two ships will be carrying a large group of marines and could be used to evacuate Russian citizens and property. There has been no official confirmation of the report from the navy or the defence ministry.
The deployment of the two ships is a sure sign of the deterioration of the situation in Syria as the country descends into all-out civil war..............
I do remember back in the 1970s the they had a permanent presence moored at the "Cyprus Buoy" south of Larnaca that the aircraft going back from firing on the banner used to beat up. Supposedly it had enough armoured vehicles and marines to reach and evacuate the embassy in Nicosia in the event of any problems.
I would imagine the size of the Russian embassy in Damascus would need two ships worth to evacuate all the personnel, documents and equipment they couldn't destroy.
Torygraph: Home»News»World News»Middle East»SyriaRussia 'sending warships to Syria'
Russia is preparing to send two amphibious assault ships to the Syrian port of Tartus according to the Interfax news agency.
The move is seen as an attempt to ensure the safety of Russian nationals stationed at the strategic naval base Moscow operates on Syria's Mediterranean coast.
An unidentified officer confirmed that "Two major amphibious ships – The Nikolai Filchenkov and The Tsezar Kunikov – are preparing to be dispatched to Tartus outside of their schedule."
It is believed the two ships will be carrying a large group of marines and could be used to evacuate Russian citizens and property. There has been no official confirmation of the report from the navy or the defence ministry.
The deployment of the two ships is a sure sign of the deterioration of the situation in Syria as the country descends into all-out civil war..............
Last edited by ORAC; 18th Jun 2012 at 12:24.
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Poor defence knowledge at the Telegraph again. It's probably a sub-editor's fault but the aircraft in the photo isn't at all similar to a MiG-21!
This is why nobody will do anything most of the time.
The Guardian Blue print for Freedom of the People
1. Guardian reports oppression of people in country X
2. Guardian readers demand action now.
3. UN says no mandate, no consensus
4. Guardian readers incensed at loss of human life - demand action
5. Governments, tired of the wet lefties marching on the streets, put sanctions on country X
6. Guardian complains about sanctions not working.
7. Countries put even tougher sanctions on and consider invasion
8. Guardian readers object to warmongering by other countries and march on the streets demanding peace
9. Country X wonders who the Guardian readers are and why they aren't here with guns actually doing something useful.
.
.
.
199. Country is invaded under a UN resolution
200. First Guardian "Stop the War campaign"
201. First person hurt/injured/killed
202. Guardian demand return of military and a cease fire
203. Locals in Country X wonder whose side the Guardian readers are on
204. War continues, incumbent regime collapses, victory assured
205. Locals start reprisals against regime leadership - embarrassed silence from Guardian readers
206. Locals demand money to rebuild country
.
.
.
250. Money provided and locals spend it on weapons and building a tribal structure with warlords all over
251. First peacekeeper killed by locals while trying to stop corruption
252. Guardian readers demand to see the evidence that an invasion was justified
253. Guardian readership demand war reparations
254. Local demand repayments for the damage done to the country in feeing it of (the original) tyranny.
.
.
.
300 Developed countries think, scr*w the lot of them and pull out, leaving them a total lawless mess, Ad nauseum.
.
.
.
301. Some one figures out that if we ignore step 199 to 300, the outcome is just the same and a darn sight cheaper and who cares what the hypocritical Guardian readers think - the locals in Country X don't so why should the UK ?
The Guardian Blue print for Freedom of the People
1. Guardian reports oppression of people in country X
2. Guardian readers demand action now.
3. UN says no mandate, no consensus
4. Guardian readers incensed at loss of human life - demand action
5. Governments, tired of the wet lefties marching on the streets, put sanctions on country X
6. Guardian complains about sanctions not working.
7. Countries put even tougher sanctions on and consider invasion
8. Guardian readers object to warmongering by other countries and march on the streets demanding peace
9. Country X wonders who the Guardian readers are and why they aren't here with guns actually doing something useful.
.
.
.
199. Country is invaded under a UN resolution
200. First Guardian "Stop the War campaign"
201. First person hurt/injured/killed
202. Guardian demand return of military and a cease fire
203. Locals in Country X wonder whose side the Guardian readers are on
204. War continues, incumbent regime collapses, victory assured
205. Locals start reprisals against regime leadership - embarrassed silence from Guardian readers
206. Locals demand money to rebuild country
.
.
.
250. Money provided and locals spend it on weapons and building a tribal structure with warlords all over
251. First peacekeeper killed by locals while trying to stop corruption
252. Guardian readers demand to see the evidence that an invasion was justified
253. Guardian readership demand war reparations
254. Local demand repayments for the damage done to the country in feeing it of (the original) tyranny.
.
.
.
300 Developed countries think, scr*w the lot of them and pull out, leaving them a total lawless mess, Ad nauseum.
.
.
.
301. Some one figures out that if we ignore step 199 to 300, the outcome is just the same and a darn sight cheaper and who cares what the hypocritical Guardian readers think - the locals in Country X don't so why should the UK ?
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Fodplod, they were only 8 out... 
At the risk of being provocative ....
Why should we intervene in Syria?
Why should we not look to the Arab world - who are quite happy to criticize the Western world for "imperialist crusader tendancies" when we try to do the right thing - to sort their own house out for once?
Just a thought. And before people start arguing that it is the moral thing to do, I would ask just whose morals would Western intervention satisfy? I forget which school of philosophy subscribes to the theory that individuals only ever do something because it is in their interests, including making the individual in question feel good. But looking at the way Iraq is going as an example, just what would Western intervention in Syria actually achieve other than salving the Western conscience?
And no, intervention wouldn't stop the general repression that seems to exist in one way shape or form regardless of flag flown, party name or presidential title in that region. Like the Russian revolution in 1918, all it would likely achieve is to replace one repressive regime with another.
Why should we not look to the Arab world - who are quite happy to criticize the Western world for "imperialist crusader tendancies" when we try to do the right thing - to sort their own house out for once?
Just a thought. And before people start arguing that it is the moral thing to do, I would ask just whose morals would Western intervention satisfy? I forget which school of philosophy subscribes to the theory that individuals only ever do something because it is in their interests, including making the individual in question feel good. But looking at the way Iraq is going as an example, just what would Western intervention in Syria actually achieve other than salving the Western conscience?
And no, intervention wouldn't stop the general repression that seems to exist in one way shape or form regardless of flag flown, party name or presidential title in that region. Like the Russian revolution in 1918, all it would likely achieve is to replace one repressive regime with another.
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Any person who has spent any time in the Middle East will have come to the conclusion that the concepts of democracy and respecting the majority etc. are completely alien to the region.As far as the Syrian situation is concerned if Assad is removed he will simply be replaced by another vicious dictator. I spent many years working in the region and was told very early on that the Arab philosophy was that he had his foot on your neck or you had your foot on his.
Not a single British soldier should be put in harms way under any pretext of humanitarian principles - as in past and present efforts the people we try to help will turn on us in an instant.
Not a single British soldier should be put in harms way under any pretext of humanitarian principles - as in past and present efforts the people we try to help will turn on us in an instant.
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Poor defence knowledge at the Telegraph again. It's probably a sub-editor's fault but the aircraft in the photo isn't at all similar to a MiG-21!
The Russians are no better
Pilot who defected Syria on MiG-21 fighter jet granted asylum in Jordan — RT
milo
The Russians are no better
Pilot who defected Syria on MiG-21 fighter jet granted asylum in Jordan — RT
milo
Looks like the game is on now, as news reports are that a Turkish F-4, over international waters, was shot down by Syrian air defense.
There seems to be some question over "35NM limit" and internationally agreed "12 nm limit" which reminds me of a certain mad colonel in Libya in the 80's. Asserting a longer territorial limit didn't turn out all that well for him, did it?
Assad ought to consider that bit of history when the US Sixth Fleet, aka NATO's StrikeForceSouth (or whatever they call it nowadays) happen to still be an on call force.
Mind you, I don't think the Turks needs NATO help for this one, I suspect they are up to a punitive smack down on their own merits.
Get some popcorn, this film might be very interesting.
There seems to be some question over "35NM limit" and internationally agreed "12 nm limit" which reminds me of a certain mad colonel in Libya in the 80's. Asserting a longer territorial limit didn't turn out all that well for him, did it?
Assad ought to consider that bit of history when the US Sixth Fleet, aka NATO's StrikeForceSouth (or whatever they call it nowadays) happen to still be an on call force.
Mind you, I don't think the Turks needs NATO help for this one, I suspect they are up to a punitive smack down on their own merits.
Get some popcorn, this film might be very interesting.
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Hi,
Just a sidenote : a picture of a MiG-21, often presented as "the" defector syrian MiG, is shown by many media those days.
Said picture is of an egyptian MiG, in Louxor, february 2010:
View topic - Egyptian MiGs - Luxor 24/02/2010
Just a sidenote : a picture of a MiG-21, often presented as "the" defector syrian MiG, is shown by many media those days.
Said picture is of an egyptian MiG, in Louxor, february 2010:
View topic - Egyptian MiGs - Luxor 24/02/2010
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Russian helicopter shipment heading back to Syria: Ifax
A ship carrying Russian helicopters to Syria, which turned back after its insurance was cut, is expected to resume its journey accompanied by at least one other vessel, Interfax reported today, citing a military source.
The report is likely to reignite international criticism of Russia's arms deliveries to Syria which U.S. officials have called reprehensible and the Arab League has said should be stopped.
"A military-diplomatic source in Moscow told Interfax that (the ship) will go from Murmansk to Syria. According to his information the ship should travel under escort," the news agency reported.
The ship Alaed, which entered the Russian port of Murmansk on Sunday to change its flag to the Russian Standard, will not be accompanied by military vessels, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The report did not say how the ship had resolved its insurance problems or what difference the flag change would make.........
A ship carrying Russian helicopters to Syria, which turned back after its insurance was cut, is expected to resume its journey accompanied by at least one other vessel, Interfax reported today, citing a military source.
The report is likely to reignite international criticism of Russia's arms deliveries to Syria which U.S. officials have called reprehensible and the Arab League has said should be stopped.
"A military-diplomatic source in Moscow told Interfax that (the ship) will go from Murmansk to Syria. According to his information the ship should travel under escort," the news agency reported.
The ship Alaed, which entered the Russian port of Murmansk on Sunday to change its flag to the Russian Standard, will not be accompanied by military vessels, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The report did not say how the ship had resolved its insurance problems or what difference the flag change would make.........
Would that be the Russian helicopter shipment that is actually a number of aircraft that had been sent back to Russia for repair a long time before all this nonsense started and is therefore simply part of a completely legal and above board contract?
Now I don't know the exact numbers of aircraft on board, but I strongly suspect it is a small number of the overall total in the Syrian ORBAT, and there will be plenty sitting in hangars somewhere. From the Regime's perspective, all the temporary delay of the return of these aircraft is likely to achieve is a bit more effort to wheel some more out of the sheds and prepare them. And then you still have the fixed wing fleet to contend with.
The harsh truth of the matter is that after the politicians have once again singularly failed in the UN (their success in Libya largely contributing to current Russian stuborness) - on top of their repeated failures to sort the constant stream of international economic crises - once again shows their rather ineffectual colours in their true light. This ship turns round, goes back to home port and if I were a betting man, arranges cover via some Russian government scheme and heads back, this time almost untouchable courtesy of Moscow. It's just another attempt by the politicians to salve their own consciences, to show the world that they are doing something. But in reality it's activity rather than achievement.
Now I don't know the exact numbers of aircraft on board, but I strongly suspect it is a small number of the overall total in the Syrian ORBAT, and there will be plenty sitting in hangars somewhere. From the Regime's perspective, all the temporary delay of the return of these aircraft is likely to achieve is a bit more effort to wheel some more out of the sheds and prepare them. And then you still have the fixed wing fleet to contend with.
The harsh truth of the matter is that after the politicians have once again singularly failed in the UN (their success in Libya largely contributing to current Russian stuborness) - on top of their repeated failures to sort the constant stream of international economic crises - once again shows their rather ineffectual colours in their true light. This ship turns round, goes back to home port and if I were a betting man, arranges cover via some Russian government scheme and heads back, this time almost untouchable courtesy of Moscow. It's just another attempt by the politicians to salve their own consciences, to show the world that they are doing something. But in reality it's activity rather than achievement.
Last edited by Melchett01; 24th Jun 2012 at 20:04.
Aha, reflagged as Russian, and then off to do business. Hadn't realized that it may not have been operating under Russian flag.
Sounds a bit like reflagging Kuwaiti tankers in the Persian Gulf a few decades ago, yes?
Good fun!
Sounds a bit like reflagging Kuwaiti tankers in the Persian Gulf a few decades ago, yes?
Good fun!
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Funny how we spend so much time debating Syria where the media direct us to look while ignoring South Africa where so many people of similar stock and culture as ourselves have been brutally murdered in recent years.