Apache clips power lines
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought that as well Westie but the report says:
"Speaking last night a spokesman from the power company said: “We received a report from police at 11.02pm that a helicopter had come into contact with overhead power lines.
“Our engineers are currently on site and have established that a 132,000 volt overhead power line has been damaged.
“This interrupted power supplies to 373 customers, and others across a wider area would have had a flickering supply for a few seconds which then returned to normal."
Doesn't make sense if only a few hundred customers were affected. On the other hand there are 132KV lines visible in the photo of the downed chopper, assuming of course it's genuine.
"Speaking last night a spokesman from the power company said: “We received a report from police at 11.02pm that a helicopter had come into contact with overhead power lines.
“Our engineers are currently on site and have established that a 132,000 volt overhead power line has been damaged.
“This interrupted power supplies to 373 customers, and others across a wider area would have had a flickering supply for a few seconds which then returned to normal."
Doesn't make sense if only a few hundred customers were affected. On the other hand there are 132KV lines visible in the photo of the downed chopper, assuming of course it's genuine.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The IR night vision system should show wires etc. pretty well, but if they were obscured against the background temperature, they might not be visible at all in the seconds prior to collision.
I don't think Apache fitted with 2012 Garmin either!!
The aircraft looks totally undamaged in the BBC photos, so probably snipped the wire on the undercarriage or gun wire cutters. speculate speculate!!
I don't think Apache fitted with 2012 Garmin either!!
The aircraft looks totally undamaged in the BBC photos, so probably snipped the wire on the undercarriage or gun wire cutters. speculate speculate!!
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the western edge of The Moor
Age: 67
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah apologies for not reading all the info, Still surprised at the small numbers but it is possible on some systems.
Watching the video if the close up of the two cables is a result of the strike it is possibly the earth wire that was struck, bringing it into contact with one of the live cables.
Watching the video if the close up of the two cables is a result of the strike it is possibly the earth wire that was struck, bringing it into contact with one of the live cables.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Down South...
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a photo of the pylon in question on the Daily Mail website:
Apache chopper from Prince Harry's helicopter unit crash lands after hitting power lines | Mail Online
If you look closely at the front end shot of the AH, there is a scrape / burn mark underneath the starboard engine nacelle and on top of both IEFABs. This aligns with the wire cutter just above the MTADs optics.
PP
Apache chopper from Prince Harry's helicopter unit crash lands after hitting power lines | Mail Online
If you look closely at the front end shot of the AH, there is a scrape / burn mark underneath the starboard engine nacelle and on top of both IEFABs. This aligns with the wire cutter just above the MTADs optics.
PP
Last edited by Phantom Phlyer; 22nd Feb 2012 at 21:18. Reason: Look closely at the photo...
SHOCK! HORROR! PROBE!
You guys are not taking this seriously enough! 373 locals had their power supply interupted, for goodness sake...
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
That would be why you always cross at the pylon - assuming of course you have seen the wires in time. Much easier to see a pylon than a 0.5" cable at night.
My goodness but that chap who was camping had a lucky escape...
Does the convention still apply that the pilot will now (and for evermore) be known as "Sparky"?
I knew a previous Sparky, a long time ago, who took out some power lines in Norway while chasing a dog down a road in (I believe) his Sea King. Unfortunately, he also took out the tail empanage and ended up in a rather deep snow drift and subsequently, rather deep something else. True.
Does the convention still apply that the pilot will now (and for evermore) be known as "Sparky"?
I knew a previous Sparky, a long time ago, who took out some power lines in Norway while chasing a dog down a road in (I believe) his Sea King. Unfortunately, he also took out the tail empanage and ended up in a rather deep snow drift and subsequently, rather deep something else. True.
Two's In - exactly right - every military pilot is taught to cross wires at the pylons for exactly that reason, the earth wire is often very difficult to see.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
You guys are not taking this seriously enough! 373 locals had their power supply interupted, for goodness sake...
We don't get anything like that much round here.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
373 locals with nothing to do means 4,476 fingers idly tappng waiting for the power to come back on.
/SB777 -Yes, both crew are trained and qualified to fly the Apache.
/SB777 -Yes, both crew are trained and qualified to fly the Apache.
Ministry of Defence | About Defence | Corporate Publications | Air Safety and Aviation Publications | Military Aviation Authority | Corporate Information
See Air Safety Annual Report, page 3;
“At this stage I have identified 3 strategic Air Safety operating risks.......(3) helicopter collisions with wires and obstructions. Ensuring they attract an appropriate profile and emphasis on their mitigation will be a priority for me in the coming period.”
And Annex A;
“A 2008 report....28 recommendations including technology and research....some significant ones remain outstanding, particularly in the technology and research area...”.
At the moment I can’t reconcile this with the fact it is well over 20 years since the multi-function, podded laser detector was offered to MoD and the fact the design team has been disbanded / made redundant while MoD’s R&D effort in this technology area has been more or less stopped. At the time, the pod would have been considered heavy for most helicopters (the requirement was FW) but technology has moved on since I saw the prototype working in 1985. If anyone in MAA is reading this, dig around the old files and engage the designer. He has his own company now and routinely advises NATS and other countries on similar applications of the same basic device. MoD should also bear in mind they probably retain the Intellectual Property Rights!
See Air Safety Annual Report, page 3;
“At this stage I have identified 3 strategic Air Safety operating risks.......(3) helicopter collisions with wires and obstructions. Ensuring they attract an appropriate profile and emphasis on their mitigation will be a priority for me in the coming period.”
And Annex A;
“A 2008 report....28 recommendations including technology and research....some significant ones remain outstanding, particularly in the technology and research area...”.
At the moment I can’t reconcile this with the fact it is well over 20 years since the multi-function, podded laser detector was offered to MoD and the fact the design team has been disbanded / made redundant while MoD’s R&D effort in this technology area has been more or less stopped. At the time, the pod would have been considered heavy for most helicopters (the requirement was FW) but technology has moved on since I saw the prototype working in 1985. If anyone in MAA is reading this, dig around the old files and engage the designer. He has his own company now and routinely advises NATS and other countries on similar applications of the same basic device. MoD should also bear in mind they probably retain the Intellectual Property Rights!
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doesn't a 132,000 V conductor lead to a significant magnetic field; is there a way this could be used as a detector / warning system? Might be better and more specific than the IR signature?
Tuc, the answer is much simpler - the Apache has a digital mapping system that is relied on in flight - the problem is that the system has to be populated by the crew, marking wires, masts, airfields, targets etc before flight.
But, there are only 95 bits of info that can be put on that map which restricts you to a specific track if you are to retain accurate obstruction information. Once you deviate off-track you are effectively flying blind, at night with just the IR system to help you.
Of course the FOB mandates that appropriate mapping is carried on the aircraft and that seems to be met by the bloke in the back stuffing a half and quarter mil into his pocket - whether they are actually referred to in flight or not I cannot comment on but anecdotal reports would suggest not.
I suspect the crew involved had very carefully marked the large wires they hit but may have seen the smaller ones and mis-idented those and continued their approach.
Since MAA is all about airworthiness - who signed off a nav/mission planning system with very limited capability for use in UK when a proper, digital database, correctly updated could have been procured? Hardly ALARP is it?
But, there are only 95 bits of info that can be put on that map which restricts you to a specific track if you are to retain accurate obstruction information. Once you deviate off-track you are effectively flying blind, at night with just the IR system to help you.
Of course the FOB mandates that appropriate mapping is carried on the aircraft and that seems to be met by the bloke in the back stuffing a half and quarter mil into his pocket - whether they are actually referred to in flight or not I cannot comment on but anecdotal reports would suggest not.
I suspect the crew involved had very carefully marked the large wires they hit but may have seen the smaller ones and mis-idented those and continued their approach.
Since MAA is all about airworthiness - who signed off a nav/mission planning system with very limited capability for use in UK when a proper, digital database, correctly updated could have been procured? Hardly ALARP is it?
Crab
Many thanks. My comment, while prompted by this incident, was on the general subject as I don't think most other aircraft have the Apache system you mention (which I know little about).
The MAA 's recent involvement would be to have the Safety Cases and implementation of the MoD's Safety Management System audited. I can't comment on Apache, except to note that during development and production they were under the same anti-airworthiness regime (at 2 Star level) that was concurrently (mis)managing Nimrod RMPA and Chinook HC Mk3. However, to be fair, they had some excellent people on the programme and I'd like to think they chose to ignore the routine orders not to deliver airworthiness if it meant slippage or cost over-runs. Others did and delivered to time, cost and performance (which includes safety), but not Chinook or Nimrod; which, ironically, by following these orders delivered both slippage and sub-airworthiness.
But it was also routine, at the time, to salami slice programmes at the whim of beancounters and such databases were easy targets when the policy was "Wait until there is a problem (i.e. an incident or accident) and then we'll have another look". (In this sense, Haddon-Cave was "another look"!). I'd like to think those I knew on the programme would have recorded it as a risk, but I know from personal experience their 2 Star would not even give it a second glance, despite it being his primary role to provide management oversight and assess major risks once a month. (In 6 years, he never once assessed any of mine, despite my being on the PAC's radar as a test case; but then, if he had, he'd have gone berserk at my refusal to ignore safety and the aircraft would still be sat in a hangar somewhere a la Chinook). I reckon I'm not far off.
Regards
Many thanks. My comment, while prompted by this incident, was on the general subject as I don't think most other aircraft have the Apache system you mention (which I know little about).
The MAA 's recent involvement would be to have the Safety Cases and implementation of the MoD's Safety Management System audited. I can't comment on Apache, except to note that during development and production they were under the same anti-airworthiness regime (at 2 Star level) that was concurrently (mis)managing Nimrod RMPA and Chinook HC Mk3. However, to be fair, they had some excellent people on the programme and I'd like to think they chose to ignore the routine orders not to deliver airworthiness if it meant slippage or cost over-runs. Others did and delivered to time, cost and performance (which includes safety), but not Chinook or Nimrod; which, ironically, by following these orders delivered both slippage and sub-airworthiness.
But it was also routine, at the time, to salami slice programmes at the whim of beancounters and such databases were easy targets when the policy was "Wait until there is a problem (i.e. an incident or accident) and then we'll have another look". (In this sense, Haddon-Cave was "another look"!). I'd like to think those I knew on the programme would have recorded it as a risk, but I know from personal experience their 2 Star would not even give it a second glance, despite it being his primary role to provide management oversight and assess major risks once a month. (In 6 years, he never once assessed any of mine, despite my being on the PAC's radar as a test case; but then, if he had, he'd have gone berserk at my refusal to ignore safety and the aircraft would still be sat in a hangar somewhere a la Chinook). I reckon I'm not far off.
Regards
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab,
The flight/nav system unfortunately does not work in isolation and it is/was the overall computing power of the aircraft that was the limit. Future iterations with more powerful computers and this will not be a problem I suspect. A capability was needed that had limitations but was still far ahead of other fleets.
A remarkably accurate summation of events as it happens!
What the Apache has that others do not is wire cutters, a cracking advert for wider use, it has paid for itself in this one incident alone
The flight/nav system unfortunately does not work in isolation and it is/was the overall computing power of the aircraft that was the limit. Future iterations with more powerful computers and this will not be a problem I suspect. A capability was needed that had limitations but was still far ahead of other fleets.
A remarkably accurate summation of events as it happens!
What the Apache has that others do not is wire cutters, a cracking advert for wider use, it has paid for itself in this one incident alone