How about a list of journalists, rated by their reporting skills?
None but a blockhead
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do what you can. I'm a tech journalist, so sometimes get to write about aviation (was at a very odd do at Greenwich the other week, where Airbus showed off its marketing department). We do try to get things right, which means missing some stories which we can't stand up or just don't believe, and I'd be upset if we messed up on a technical point. Most of my colleagues at my company and among our competitors, ditto.
Some national journos are just as scrupulous as the best of the technical press, and others... well, they tend to work for titles with an horrendous work rate, and where you get fired if you don't regularly get stuff into the front of the book. You don't have time to get it right, but you have to make it exciting, and the editor just really cares that you don't land them in it.
Don't read those titles. If people didn't read the bad stuff, it wouldn't get written. Which is absolutely not an excuse for it, just saying how it could be shut off.
One plea: if members of the press come around on Pprune asking questions, please don't assume they're out to do evil. Although in general this is a place with great reserves of patience and good will, it can be what I believe is called a sporting ride if you pick a bad day. (On the other hand, if they're clearly out to do evil, have at 'em.)
R
Some national journos are just as scrupulous as the best of the technical press, and others... well, they tend to work for titles with an horrendous work rate, and where you get fired if you don't regularly get stuff into the front of the book. You don't have time to get it right, but you have to make it exciting, and the editor just really cares that you don't land them in it.
Don't read those titles. If people didn't read the bad stuff, it wouldn't get written. Which is absolutely not an excuse for it, just saying how it could be shut off.
One plea: if members of the press come around on Pprune asking questions, please don't assume they're out to do evil. Although in general this is a place with great reserves of patience and good will, it can be what I believe is called a sporting ride if you pick a bad day. (On the other hand, if they're clearly out to do evil, have at 'em.)
R
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: England
Age: 53
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All,
Whilst it is obvious by my profile that I do not post that much and that I haven't posted in a while I felt that this thread actually needed some reality injected into it.
This thread was started by Danny2 as a result of the tragic accident that happened at Bournemouth last weekend and because of the reporting of the incident that happened in the aftermath (here on PPRuNe and on various websites not necessarily media ones).
I am not a journalist and have no interest in being one but if Danny2 is the same Danny that started PPRuNe then I find it extremely sad that he has reacted in this way by starting a thread like this without any thought in anyway shape or form.
The reason why I make that comment - and as any sane person will understand - is that journalism is subjective. Every single person on this site has their own favourite paper(s) because of their own likes/dislikes. To start a thread about who is or who is not a good journalist is a complete waste of time and effort as it depends on individual criteria. To start a thread such as this as a result of last weekend is in my mind disappointing and denigrates what PPRuNe was set up for.
Whilst it is right to criticise and complain against news organisations for publishing information before it is right and proper, I do think that it is fair to say that most responsible news organisations don't do that (as some have stated here) so the issues lie elsewhere. Personally, if people have an issue I would suggest that it is the editors being the ones to moan against not the journalists themselves.
If you think that I am wrong and want to have a sensible debate then I'm happy to do so - if you want to have a go then don't expect an answer
airmail
Whilst it is obvious by my profile that I do not post that much and that I haven't posted in a while I felt that this thread actually needed some reality injected into it.
This thread was started by Danny2 as a result of the tragic accident that happened at Bournemouth last weekend and because of the reporting of the incident that happened in the aftermath (here on PPRuNe and on various websites not necessarily media ones).
I am not a journalist and have no interest in being one but if Danny2 is the same Danny that started PPRuNe then I find it extremely sad that he has reacted in this way by starting a thread like this without any thought in anyway shape or form.
The reason why I make that comment - and as any sane person will understand - is that journalism is subjective. Every single person on this site has their own favourite paper(s) because of their own likes/dislikes. To start a thread about who is or who is not a good journalist is a complete waste of time and effort as it depends on individual criteria. To start a thread such as this as a result of last weekend is in my mind disappointing and denigrates what PPRuNe was set up for.
Whilst it is right to criticise and complain against news organisations for publishing information before it is right and proper, I do think that it is fair to say that most responsible news organisations don't do that (as some have stated here) so the issues lie elsewhere. Personally, if people have an issue I would suggest that it is the editors being the ones to moan against not the journalists themselves.
If you think that I am wrong and want to have a sensible debate then I'm happy to do so - if you want to have a go then don't expect an answer
airmail
Jackonicko
Jackonicko, since you're probably reading this, for about the umpteenth time:
PLEASE RETURN THE SLIDES I LOANED YOU!!
Otherwise I might just have to advise people about 'journo integrity'....??
PLEASE RETURN THE SLIDES I LOANED YOU!!
Otherwise I might just have to advise people about 'journo integrity'....??
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Mail used to have a specialist defence & aviation correspondent but that slot disappeared back in the mid-1990s.
As mentioned above, there are the specialists and the general reporters (hacks). ALL of them are generally subject to the whims (and, in some cases, prejudices and general ignorance) of whoever is running the news desk - home or foreign - that day.
This can then be compounded by the subs desk. Time was that a sub would ask the correspondent to clarify something if the sub was not sure of either meaning or sense. Nowadays, it frequently looks as if this is no longer the case.
One other thing, I do not know about other papers, but I do know that if you see a piece in the Mail bylined to "Daily Mail Reporter", this is shorthand for "This Piece Has Come Straight From Agency" e.g. Press Association.
As mentioned above, there are the specialists and the general reporters (hacks). ALL of them are generally subject to the whims (and, in some cases, prejudices and general ignorance) of whoever is running the news desk - home or foreign - that day.
This can then be compounded by the subs desk. Time was that a sub would ask the correspondent to clarify something if the sub was not sure of either meaning or sense. Nowadays, it frequently looks as if this is no longer the case.
One other thing, I do not know about other papers, but I do know that if you see a piece in the Mail bylined to "Daily Mail Reporter", this is shorthand for "This Piece Has Come Straight From Agency" e.g. Press Association.
FX Guru
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Greenwich
Age: 67
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, The Times informed us the other day in article about football in Qatar that players can expect temperatures of over 100 degrees F -- "that's the boiling point of water!"
I sent an e-mail to them but have not had the courtesy of a reply.
I sent an e-mail to them but have not had the courtesy of a reply.
Any of the "fly ins" are to be avoided... like The Plague.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Praising "LowObservable"
Easy going there. He's already had quite a bit of that sort of talk. Any more and he'll be even more impossible to deal with in social situations.
OK, journalists. Please try to justify the 'mystery flash' articles - now in the Telegraph also. Asking any Hawk pilot or technician would have cleared up the 'mystery'. The strobe light is even visible on the wikipedia entry photo for the Hawk.
'Mystery' meaning 'I am an uninformed sensationalist who can't be bothered to check anything'.
Getting jealous of the bankers displacing you from the 'Top 3 most hated occupations'?
'Mystery' meaning 'I am an uninformed sensationalist who can't be bothered to check anything'.
Getting jealous of the bankers displacing you from the 'Top 3 most hated occupations'?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"OK, journalists. Please try to justify the 'mystery flash' articles - now in the Telegraph also. Asking any Hawk pilot or technician would have cleared up the 'mystery'. The strobe light is even visible on the wikipedia entry photo for the Hawk.
'Mystery' meaning 'I am an uninformed sensationalist who can't be bothered to check anything'."
If they checked, they wouldn't be able to put up sensationalist head lines and therefore wouldn't sell as many newspapers.
The way the media / journalists / reporters are at the moment, they are starting to make Second hand car salesmen look good.
.
'Mystery' meaning 'I am an uninformed sensationalist who can't be bothered to check anything'."
If they checked, they wouldn't be able to put up sensationalist head lines and therefore wouldn't sell as many newspapers.
The way the media / journalists / reporters are at the moment, they are starting to make Second hand car salesmen look good.
.
As has already been stated, journalists are no different from other professionals – there are good and bad. Judging ALL journalists (especially the dedicated trade press) by the standards of a British tabloid is unfair, lazy and just plain ignorant.
'I am an uninformed sensationalist…’ – you said it Fox3.
'I am an uninformed sensationalist…’ – you said it Fox3.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: EMA
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, they're different.
"No difference from other professionals" ?
As we established previously, it's stretching a point to refer to journalists as professionals. Where's the training syllabus, regulatory body, STANDARDS OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT that are expected of some of the rest of us ?
Good Lord man, you'll be referring to plumbers as Engineers, next...
Needless to say, just like any of human behaviour there's an S-curve with some good long tails, from Paul Foot or perhaps Anna Politkovskaya down to News International and the hacks in war zones who don't pay medical insurance to their local "fixers."
But there is a difference from a number of other crafts, trades and professions - very few of those hold themselves up as heroic defenders of truth and democracy, moralisers and standard-setters. The rest of us do our jobs and take more-or-less quiet pride: journalism sets itself up, and asks, to be judged.
My judgement ? A little more humility would be fine. Honourable exceptions among the trade press that I've met.
Y
As we established previously, it's stretching a point to refer to journalists as professionals. Where's the training syllabus, regulatory body, STANDARDS OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT that are expected of some of the rest of us ?
Good Lord man, you'll be referring to plumbers as Engineers, next...
Needless to say, just like any of human behaviour there's an S-curve with some good long tails, from Paul Foot or perhaps Anna Politkovskaya down to News International and the hacks in war zones who don't pay medical insurance to their local "fixers."
But there is a difference from a number of other crafts, trades and professions - very few of those hold themselves up as heroic defenders of truth and democracy, moralisers and standard-setters. The rest of us do our jobs and take more-or-less quiet pride: journalism sets itself up, and asks, to be judged.
My judgement ? A little more humility would be fine. Honourable exceptions among the trade press that I've met.
Y
Training syllabus –In the UK there is the National Council for the Training of Journalists (NCTJ), which provides an internationally recognized and accredited training syllabus. There are also degrees, Masters degrees, post-graduate diplomas dedicated to the profession that are underwritten and accredited by various organizations depending on the particular media concerned (print, TV, online etc).
Regulatory body – Again, in the UK there is the Press Complaints Commission (PCC): An independent self-regulatory body which deals with complaints about the editorial content of newspapers and magazines (and their websites) – lifted from their website I confess.
Standard of Professional conduct – as set out by the PCC and enforced through the courts (in the UK – other countries have their own procedures).
“Honourable exceptions among the trade press that I've met” – exactly the point I was making about tarring all journos with the same brush. Generalizations don’t stand up as there is always an exception that renders them untrue.
To be fair, I’ve not heard of any journalists coming on to this forum and declaring themselves to be “heroic defenders of truth and democracy, moralisers and standard-setters.” That’s a label that you have given them yourself Yanchik.
Regulatory body – Again, in the UK there is the Press Complaints Commission (PCC): An independent self-regulatory body which deals with complaints about the editorial content of newspapers and magazines (and their websites) – lifted from their website I confess.
Standard of Professional conduct – as set out by the PCC and enforced through the courts (in the UK – other countries have their own procedures).
“Honourable exceptions among the trade press that I've met” – exactly the point I was making about tarring all journos with the same brush. Generalizations don’t stand up as there is always an exception that renders them untrue.
To be fair, I’ve not heard of any journalists coming on to this forum and declaring themselves to be “heroic defenders of truth and democracy, moralisers and standard-setters.” That’s a label that you have given them yourself Yanchik.
Training and qualifications are all very well, but even the most basic training should involve what is professionally acceptable in terms of news gathering techniques, checking of facts and putting the information in context for the reader. None of this appears to be happening, with numerous examples daily, in the national media.
As for the PCC, I can only say "phone-hacking".
I grant you the same "joke qualification" applies to GCSEs, so maybe this is a sign of a general malaise.
Pilots and engineers generally lose licences, become unemployable or get imprisoned for not keeping up standards. Journalists with dodgy practices seem to be able to look forward to their own chat show in America.
As for the PCC, I can only say "phone-hacking".
I grant you the same "joke qualification" applies to GCSEs, so maybe this is a sign of a general malaise.
Pilots and engineers generally lose licences, become unemployable or get imprisoned for not keeping up standards. Journalists with dodgy practices seem to be able to look forward to their own chat show in America.
"but even the most basic training should involve what is professionally acceptable in terms of news gathering techniques, checking of facts and putting the information in context for the reader. "
All the training syllabuses I mentioned DO train the journalist to do ALL of these things. There’s no accounting for those that choose not to operate by these standards (NoW etc), but these are the exceptions rather than the rule (across the entire spectrum of journalism rather than the narrow section of the tabloid press).
“Pilots and engineers generally lose licences, become unemployable or get imprisoned for not keeping up standards.”
Journalists lose accrediations, become unemployable or get imprisoned just the same.
As I said in my private message to you Fox3, it’s all too easy to become cynical. However, don’t forget that when you turn on the news tonight to find out the latest news from Afghanistan or Libya, or open the broadsheets and trade press to read about it, that information is coming to you from journalists who are routinely putting their lives on the line doing a job they happen to think is a worthwhile and honourable vocation.
All the training syllabuses I mentioned DO train the journalist to do ALL of these things. There’s no accounting for those that choose not to operate by these standards (NoW etc), but these are the exceptions rather than the rule (across the entire spectrum of journalism rather than the narrow section of the tabloid press).
“Pilots and engineers generally lose licences, become unemployable or get imprisoned for not keeping up standards.”
Journalists lose accrediations, become unemployable or get imprisoned just the same.
As I said in my private message to you Fox3, it’s all too easy to become cynical. However, don’t forget that when you turn on the news tonight to find out the latest news from Afghanistan or Libya, or open the broadsheets and trade press to read about it, that information is coming to you from journalists who are routinely putting their lives on the line doing a job they happen to think is a worthwhile and honourable vocation.