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Red Arrows Jet Crash

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Red Arrows Jet Crash

Old 21st Aug 2011, 21:43
  #101 (permalink)  
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A good point RAFRAD.

"Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?"
You have hit the button that is as irksome to us mods as it is to those who, like you, would like them to just go away. We have a lot of work to do chasing the village idiots over the site to rid PPRuNe of them - people who cannot string two words together. As for commenting on an accident such this I am afraid some feel they must. We put up with that until we spot those that are as far removed as its possible to be! As Danny says, we have been deleting daft and stupid posts at a ratio of 4:1 but I would put it higher.

In the next day or two we will probably hear more from the MoD so we have to wait.

In the meantime we wish you and our regulars well.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 21:46
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Nice to see a simple explanation from a moderator. I certainly hadn't realised how 'hands on' they were in monitoring the site.
As someone who's right to comment is probably fairly tenuous I'd be sorry to see access limited.
I do agree that people should think before they post as it's obvious that friends and family can easily be affected by what is said here.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 22:00
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Just to put some perspective on this. Some time ago, my wife was told (or at least inferred) that I had been killed in an accident in Germany. It came from official sources of a sort and not from any kind of social media, although they were few and far between back then. I do not believe that any potential grieving widow is going to be loitering on PPRuNe. I suspect she is more likely to be trying to contact people who might know the real answer to her concerns, which is what my wife did. The bottom line; this is a rumour network and not an official spokesman for the RAF or any other service. People with a passing aquaintance or even genuine friends will want to know the rumours but, if they are any kind of normal human being, they won't be phoning the next of kin to pass on those rumours. RIP
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 22:28
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.
Both the Beeb and Sky covered this tragedy pretty professionally IMO. The members of the public who were first on the scene no doubt divulged more information than they saw fit to broadcast. Credit where credit is due.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 22:48
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Personally I have no problem with people discussing the causes of accidents such as this - it goes on in real life, why not here? After all I'm sure it is not going to jeopardise the official investigation.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 23:14
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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It is one thing to pontificate about possible causes of the accident on a rumour network - the issue here is naming the deceased before the NOK have been told. The mainstream media have a clear understanding with the MOD - they don't name the deceased until NOK and wider family have been informed and where possible don't name the unit (clearly not possible in this case). In any event, please let the professionals break the news to the NOK and the other members of the family in person before outing the identity on the internet, it is a simple matter of humanity.

The professional route takes time because unlike a rumour network, there has to be absolute certainty before telling someone their husband/wife/son/daughter has died and then there needs to be certainty that the right people are being told. Absolute certainty in the immediate aftermath of an incident such as this is in short supply. Finally, someone needs to be called in and put in best bib and tucker to go and break the news. This may be frustrating to those who need instant gratification but again I refer to basic humanity. Please all, in future, think before you blog.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 23:17
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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I have no problem with people discussing the causes of accidents such as this
Sort of agreed.

Those of us now flying in the civilian world have had to put up with ill informed or even completely uninformed speculation about the likes of BA38 and continuing speculations of the crew actions of AF447 for a while...it's the way of the modern world ( and yes, IMHO a lot of said speculation sucks).

Having said that as someone who pulled SDO on more than a few occasions I well remember kinformed, etc and I'd agree entirely with restricting the flow of information until NOK are informed....


general all rounder - you posted whilst I typed - nicely put

Last edited by wiggy; 21st Aug 2011 at 23:27.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 00:32
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Very sad to read of the crash of Red 4.
One of the great things about this forum is that PPLs like myself from the other end of the world who have worked from time to time in the industry can ask questions and post in threads like this military one.
We can get direct access to current and former fast-jet, helicopter and other aviators to indulge a curiosity about our common passion - flight.
I've found out an incredible amount, and enjoyed reading and asking questions of people who have flown legendary aircraft, and who are doing so today... and I've learned a lot about life in the services.
So please don't restrict us from posting and asking questions.
As regards speculation about the causes of crashes, some people here seem to be conflating the principle of not speculating if you are actively involved in the investigation, or operating a similar type, so as to avoid jumping to erroneous and dangerous misconceptions at to root cause - with more generic human curiosity.
People will always speculate - especially pilots, who out of empathy for one of their brethren and concern for the safety of flight, immediately want to try and figure out what went wrong.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 01:05
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Its happening again isn't it ?
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 01:40
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Tartare:

Eloquently put...
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 01:46
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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People trying to stop others from speculating on PPRuNe about the causes of accidents are p***ing into the wind.

It happens every time.

I dare say no-one from the Board of Inquiry will be trolling through these pages in their search for answers.

Notable points from the video I saw.

1. Engine apparently working as smoke was still on.
2. No post crash fire.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 03:13
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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A way ahead

We could always agree to a gentleman's agreement in these dreadful and inevitable situations.

1. Primary. A condolence thread. The family of the lost hero are going to be trawling the interwebs.

2. Secondary. A news thread. "What the news is stating", no analysis - simply linking the news.

3. Tertiary. A conjecture thread. A discussion thread that is sensitive to the situation.

Op MINIMISE should be realized in 1 & 3 above.

Maybe the MODs could create all 3 threads above upon any incident/accident with an opening descriptor founding the rules of such a thread.

MM
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 06:59
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Daily Rag this morning quotes a "Senior RAF source" as saying a bird strike was the likely cause.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 07:02
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Many of us who have GA aircraft belong to groups or forums for our particular types. In our group we have maybe forty to fifty regularly active posters and around two hundred or more over all.

Regrettably in the last couple of years we have had a couple of fatalities of our more popular members. From one of them the news came directly from the pilot's partner but both partners posted within a few days suggesting that we should go ahead and discuss the tragedies as it may lead to understanding and improved safety for other pilots.

Emotions are raw immediately after the event but in the longer term different people have different reactions. One of the worst aspects for the bereaved, (just my opinion) is that friends don't know how to approach them and they become isolated if they do not have a separate social circle of their own.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 07:43
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.
Both the Beeb and Sky covered this tragedy pretty professionally IMO. The members of the public who were first on the scene no doubt divulged more information than they saw fit to broadcast. Credit where credit is due.
With the above in mind, would someone with influence mind pointing out to the BBC (perhaps again) that this is not the first Red Arrows fatality since the 1970s, as they suggested on BBC Breakfast this morning. Flt Lt Neil MacLachlan was sadly killed in a display practice in January 1988.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 07:55
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Tay Cough: The Daily Telegraph quote reads:

Saturday’s accident at the Bournemouth Air Festival in Dorset was the first fatality the aerobatic team has suffered during a public display ..
.. and one assumes that this statement is indeed correct.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 08:18
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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If you assume that what you read in the paper is accurate, then you are an idiot. Most of what I have read about this incident is wrong, as is the mis-informed analysis of what could have gone wrong. Clachy was killed at Scampton practicing a roll back, I went to the funeral. The Telegraph is wrong.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 08:45
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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@Earl / The Daily Telegraph
...the first fatality the aerobatic team has suffered during a public display ..
@Mach
The Telegraph is wrong.
@Mach
Clachy was killed at Scampton practicing a roll back, I went to the funeral.
@Mach
you are an idiot
Who's the idiot?
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 08:48
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Referring to the wider discussion:

What this site has now to decide is whether it wishes to continue to repel the serious, the highly experienced, the knowledgeable, the well-connected pilots and other aviation expects who have added so much to threads such those on the Vulcan, Concorde etc in the past and want nothing whatever to do with the ignorant tittle-tattle now spamming the site.

If PPRuNe wishes to be just another social media site where anyone can say anything that's fine. But don't expect answers to serious aviation questions from those in a position to give insightful replies. They will have gone.

Until Saturday there were just two places here where serious discussions could be held without adolescent ignorant comments: Military Aircrew and Technical. Now there is only Tech.

Of the best part of two thousand pilots of the Hamble Generation only a handful now bother to contribute here.

Time for a fundamental review of what this site is for.

Otherwise simply rename the whole thing JetBlast - because that is where it's going.
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Old 22nd Aug 2011, 08:52
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Mach the Knife wrote: .. then you are an idiot.
Charming indeed!

My assumption was based on the Telegraph highlighting the fact that there had been no fatalities during public displays (as emphasised by PilotMike).

Your assumption (Mach) was that I believe everything I read and which, perhaps needless to say, is incorrect.
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