Somali pirates caught by Russian Navy
Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!
But yes, I suggest under a reasonable identification protocol, weapons free upon identification and criterion met. Getting the "reasonable" agreed is, of course, the more difficult part.
It appears to me that the RoE, and criteria, vary based on what national ensign is being flown by patrolling frigates.
Maybe, given politics as is, that is the best that can be hoped for. Further that point, the Russians seem to have broken the code more handily than some others ...
A bit of wisom lost on the likes of Pr00ne and a few others that think the way he does.
Remember now...."The Yanks...over paid, over sexed, and over here!!
(....and the other half....The Brits...under paid, under sexed, and under Eisenhower!)
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid" - Gen Eisenhower.
(....and the other half....The Brits...under paid, under sexed, and under Eisenhower!)
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"Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!"
Who would be left to protest?
Who would be left to protest?
Originally Posted by tarbaby
Originally Posted by biggus
Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!
Originally Posted by BBC News
The owner of a Thai fishing trawler has said the Indian navy sank it off Somalia's coast last week after wrongly assuming it was a pirate "mother ship". Wicharn Sirichaiekawat said the Indian frigate had attacked the Ekawat Nava 5 while it was being hijacked by pirates. He said one of the crew had been found alive after six days in the Gulf of Aden, but that another 14 were missing...
Originally Posted by RT
It has been revealed that Russia released 29 pirates held off the Somali coast to Iran and Pakistan three weeks ago, saying there was no legal basis to try them in Russia. “The pirates were handed over to representatives of Iran and Pakistan after an investigation that lasted about a week,” Interfax news agency quoted a source in the General Headquarters of the Russian Navy...
Suspicion breeds confidence
OK, let me see.
Taliban = Enemy. Nasty people with guns and RPGs which are ok to shoot on sight
Pirates = Enemy. Nasty people with guns and RPGs which are not ok to shoot on sight.
It just goes to show what a waste of time so called international law is likewise ECHR which should be abolished.
The pirates should know that they should be summarily executed if caught in the act.
Similarly, why are we not attacking their base facilities and “mother ships”?
Taliban = Enemy. Nasty people with guns and RPGs which are ok to shoot on sight
Pirates = Enemy. Nasty people with guns and RPGs which are not ok to shoot on sight.
It just goes to show what a waste of time so called international law is likewise ECHR which should be abolished.
The pirates should know that they should be summarily executed if caught in the act.
Similarly, why are we not attacking their base facilities and “mother ships”?
Why are pirates nasty people in the way the Tailban are? That may sound stupid or naive but it is an honest question.
While I don't follow the news with regard to piracy I don't believe they have killed many people.... please inform me to the contrary.
The pirates go out to hi-jack vessels. They capture the crews and release both the vessel and crew (largely unharmed) for a ransom. Killing the crews is not in their interest. They are effectively committing armed robbery...
By contrast the Tailban and other terrorist organizations go out to DELIBERATELY/INTENTIONALLY kill and maim in pursuit of their ideological objectives.
And you think both groups should be treated equally - in terms of being shot on sight? What next, people who walk on cracks in the pavement.....
While I don't follow the news with regard to piracy I don't believe they have killed many people.... please inform me to the contrary.
The pirates go out to hi-jack vessels. They capture the crews and release both the vessel and crew (largely unharmed) for a ransom. Killing the crews is not in their interest. They are effectively committing armed robbery...
By contrast the Tailban and other terrorist organizations go out to DELIBERATELY/INTENTIONALLY kill and maim in pursuit of their ideological objectives.
And you think both groups should be treated equally - in terms of being shot on sight? What next, people who walk on cracks in the pavement.....
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Biggus
"They are effectively committing armed robbery"
That is true - but you forget the rest:
They are holding their captives as slaves for whom they demand ransoms. If their demands are not met then they will dispose of their captives and sell the captured vessel and try again.
You forgot the Kidnapping - False Imprisonment - Blackmail and potentially Murder.
"They are effectively committing armed robbery"
That is true - but you forget the rest:
They are holding their captives as slaves for whom they demand ransoms. If their demands are not met then they will dispose of their captives and sell the captured vessel and try again.
You forgot the Kidnapping - False Imprisonment - Blackmail and potentially Murder.
caz,
So how many people have they actually killed...?
A (very) quick google search revealed only one example of killing, when 4 hostages were killed when Special Forces stormed the yacht they were being held on....but I could well be wrong. I asked for some facts if anyone has them.
Kidnapping, false imprisonment, etc.... Yes, not nice crimes, and I'm not saying that Somali pirates are nice people - but do these acts warrant them being "shot on sight" in the same league as terrorists. In the case of terrorists you are often trying to kill the terrorist to prevent further loss of life (e.g. suicide bomber). Taking life in self defence during an act of piracy is different from a "shoot on sight" policy, especially when you consider that many of the countries involved don't have a death penalty for their own convicted murderers.
A robust international court system for bringing any pirates caught to justice would seem to me to be a necessity, and not just for the case of piracy on the high seas.
So how many people have they actually killed...?
A (very) quick google search revealed only one example of killing, when 4 hostages were killed when Special Forces stormed the yacht they were being held on....but I could well be wrong. I asked for some facts if anyone has them.
Kidnapping, false imprisonment, etc.... Yes, not nice crimes, and I'm not saying that Somali pirates are nice people - but do these acts warrant them being "shot on sight" in the same league as terrorists. In the case of terrorists you are often trying to kill the terrorist to prevent further loss of life (e.g. suicide bomber). Taking life in self defence during an act of piracy is different from a "shoot on sight" policy, especially when you consider that many of the countries involved don't have a death penalty for their own convicted murderers.
A robust international court system for bringing any pirates caught to justice would seem to me to be a necessity, and not just for the case of piracy on the high seas.
Grandpa Aerotart
Biggus where do you think the ransom money ends up and to what purpose?
Ransoms paid to date total 100s of millions of $. They are not investing in real estate and sending their kids to private schools.
If the Somali pirates are helping fund Al Qaida et al, as I believe has been shown clearly, then they are legitimate targets.
Ransoms paid to date total 100s of millions of $. They are not investing in real estate and sending their kids to private schools.
If the Somali pirates are helping fund Al Qaida et al, as I believe has been shown clearly, then they are legitimate targets.
So, were all the Irish pubs in the USA were the hat was passed round, "for the boys" in the 80s, "legitimate targets"? That is just one easy to pick example of sources of terrorist funding......
You may live in a world of black and white, but as I have gotten older (wiser?) I have come to appreciate that it just consists of various shades of grey.
Many people on here seem very gung ho, wanted to start shooting at anything that moves. Perhaps it is simply my own personal attitude. The British used to have a Minister for War, and War Office. That was changed in 1964 to the Ministry of Defence, to reflect that the British military was a defensive organization. That seems to have changed in the last few years, to the point were we initiate aggression if we feel we can justify it, GW2, Afghanistan, etc, on the grounds that the best way to defend ourselves is to attack the aggressor first, or in the interest of saving lives. Personally I consider that a potentially very slippery slope. It is no doubt just as well that I shall be retiring from the military soon.
You may live in a world of black and white, but as I have gotten older (wiser?) I have come to appreciate that it just consists of various shades of grey.
Many people on here seem very gung ho, wanted to start shooting at anything that moves. Perhaps it is simply my own personal attitude. The British used to have a Minister for War, and War Office. That was changed in 1964 to the Ministry of Defence, to reflect that the British military was a defensive organization. That seems to have changed in the last few years, to the point were we initiate aggression if we feel we can justify it, GW2, Afghanistan, etc, on the grounds that the best way to defend ourselves is to attack the aggressor first, or in the interest of saving lives. Personally I consider that a potentially very slippery slope. It is no doubt just as well that I shall be retiring from the military soon.
A Spetsnaz team took the (4 year old) boy from his home.They then delivered the boy’s cut off ear to his mother with a video of the cutting........ The Soviets then simply shot the boy in the back of the head........
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There were quite a few US Citizens who recognised the threat of the Fascist States and were prepared to lay their lives on the line to protect Democracy. The first RAF raid on Germany in 1939 included an American Pilot of 601 Sqn ( CR Davis) who subsequently became the 10th highest scoring RAF Fighter Pilot in the Battle of Britain.
There were quite a few US Citizens who recognised the threat of the Fascist States and were prepared to lay their lives on the line to protect Democracy. The first RAF raid on Germany in 1939 included an American Pilot of 601 Sqn ( CR Davis) who subsequently became the 10th highest scoring RAF Fighter Pilot in the Battle of Britain.
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There seems to be a mass of opinion here that implies we the UK are naturally "goodies", therefore may act with impunity against "baddies". How far may we progress down that path before forfeiting any right to an arbitrary "goody" status?
If we are some paragon of virtue in the world, we will never remain so if all virtue and reason is abandoned purely to make some act easier, whether that be piracy or entire nations that have managed to be labelled (or subject to a stratcomms/info ops action...) as "bad".
If we are some paragon of virtue in the world, we will never remain so if all virtue and reason is abandoned purely to make some act easier, whether that be piracy or entire nations that have managed to be labelled (or subject to a stratcomms/info ops action...) as "bad".
Kidnapping and killing of adults vs kidnapping, torture and killing of toddlers.....I don't think so. There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point? Countering one atrocity with another reduces us to their level (or below).
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I don't agree with it, but from the Russian's point of view, the Terrorists were the bad guys, they decided to do the kidnapping, the Spetsnaz had a mission to achieve, they achieved the mission.
I would think the Russians believe in live by the Sword, die by the Sword and the terrorists brought it upon themselves.
The added bonus for the Russian's was that they didn't have any more kidnappings in the future.
"There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point? Countering one atrocity with another reduces us to their level (or below)."
It was only 60 odd years ago that we (the British) fire bombed Dresden including men, women and children.
.
I would think the Russians believe in live by the Sword, die by the Sword and the terrorists brought it upon themselves.
The added bonus for the Russian's was that they didn't have any more kidnappings in the future.
"There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point? Countering one atrocity with another reduces us to their level (or below)."
It was only 60 odd years ago that we (the British) fire bombed Dresden including men, women and children.
.
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There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point?
About five or so years ago a Hydrofoil ferry was en-route from Hong Kong to Macau. On board were a considerable number of HK Chinese with wallets bulging ready for their sessions at the Macau casinos. The ferry stopped to help a Chinese fishing boat that was indicating that it was in distress. When the fishermen came on board they produced guns and held up the entire boat. After relieving the passengers of the valuables, mobile phones and disabling the ferry's radios they sped off in their boat up the Pearl river to China.
The Chinese police apprehended them a couple of weeks later. They were tried in Chinese courts so the Hong Kong justice system had nothing to do with it. The two ringleaders were executed and the hangers-on received long prison sentences (probably the worst option).
There has not been any problem on the Hong Kong-Macau ferry route since.
The Chinese police apprehended them a couple of weeks later. They were tried in Chinese courts so the Hong Kong justice system had nothing to do with it. The two ringleaders were executed and the hangers-on received long prison sentences (probably the worst option).
There has not been any problem on the Hong Kong-Macau ferry route since.