PVRs started.....
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Be interesting to see all those green eyed blunties over the boardroom table discussing the flying pay (specialist pay) review.
I very much doubt they will be going any further with specialist pay cuts, to do so would be absolute complete and utter suicide. How they are going to manage outflow rates of SO2/SO1 if they get lumped with a 4+ year blunty tour and end up getting paid not much more than a flying officer on middle rate.
There really are some dull tw@ts making decisions at the top arent there?
I very much doubt they will be going any further with specialist pay cuts, to do so would be absolute complete and utter suicide. How they are going to manage outflow rates of SO2/SO1 if they get lumped with a 4+ year blunty tour and end up getting paid not much more than a flying officer on middle rate.
There really are some dull tw@ts making decisions at the top arent there?
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An FRI at the end of the 5 years 'enhanced pension amortization period' for 'Professional Aviator' aircrew probably sounds sensible to PMA except when it is balanced against what PA Spine aircrew are actually doing... PVR’ing in large numbers.
Half of all those that I know that are PVR’ing (over a dozen so far) are PA Spine Aircrew; sticking it out till the 5 year enhanced pension point has not enough to balance the scales. Also a number of aircrew who were offered PA Spine last time are letting the offer period lapse and they all have made it into one of the 'UK Majors' hold-pools. What is PMA to do? They need to do something fast and substantial. The promise of a potential FRI in the future isn't going to cut it as the crews have all heard it before with the subsequent amounts promised being less, the limits of applicability being so narrow as to be miss the core audience, let alone it being deemed politically unacceptable in the current climate. The outcome in these cases is simple; the crews will vote with their feet.
Half of all those that I know that are PVR’ing (over a dozen so far) are PA Spine Aircrew; sticking it out till the 5 year enhanced pension point has not enough to balance the scales. Also a number of aircrew who were offered PA Spine last time are letting the offer period lapse and they all have made it into one of the 'UK Majors' hold-pools. What is PMA to do? They need to do something fast and substantial. The promise of a potential FRI in the future isn't going to cut it as the crews have all heard it before with the subsequent amounts promised being less, the limits of applicability being so narrow as to be miss the core audience, let alone it being deemed politically unacceptable in the current climate. The outcome in these cases is simple; the crews will vote with their feet.
LJ
Good news for some of the SH Sqn's who have seen far worse rates of late.
some squadrons will end up with a dilution rate worse than that in the late 90s (about 65% diluted, ie. less than 2 years on type).
MGD
Sadly, 65% will probably be "at best" with the other 35% doing all the crap - Auth, DOF/DAO, CR work up and QRA/National Standby. Also, the wise old "Sqn Uncle" will be a thing of the past with no-one there to tell the Boss/Flt Cdrs that they may have got it wrong...
Still, on the bright side, I've known a few "Sqn Aunties" in my time!
LJ
Sadly, 65% will probably be "at best" with the other 35% doing all the crap - Auth, DOF/DAO, CR work up and QRA/National Standby. Also, the wise old "Sqn Uncle" will be a thing of the past with no-one there to tell the Boss/Flt Cdrs that they may have got it wrong...
Still, on the bright side, I've known a few "Sqn Aunties" in my time!
LJ
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Seldom:
You are most fortunate to have a pleasant view from the morale highground on which you persistantly advise is your standpoint. But one mans "tosh" is another mans "blinkers" and it is you that needs to open your eyes and see what debris resides on the squadrons from which you came. It is not a pretty sight, and whilst you hold no kudos with "experience", the fact is that a lack of it contributed significantly to the problems the Puma fleet had/maybe even have.
Lack of experience or lack of supervision? I think back to my time on the Puma and the Bittburg 7 and Poland 5 are shining examples of how the youth of today will always seek to push the boundaries.
There is a Manning crisis unfolding from under your eyes. It is true that there are many simply happy to a job of any description, but it is equally true that the people we need most are choosing to exit stage right. I am sure the 'damage limitation' by Manning will be managed to make the reduction in overall numbers within target, and those that believe nobody cares are spot on.... to a point: The Command-chain and Manning may not care; but those left behind care, those who operate under rescourced and without the benefit of war-story knowledge handed down that will at some stage be reflected in Flight Safety stats.
The vast majority of the first and second tourists on the J have got more real time "war experience" than most of their command chain and without a doubt buckets loads more than their OCU counterparts. Not sure how that stacks up in the rotary world but in my time I seem to recall Shawbury ad it's fair share of Shropshire Permanent Staff.
As I said; the lofty perch on which you sit may be a good job, with good Execs/OC and admin support. I dont begrudge it, but you should value it, for it is becoming a rare comodity. ....and think before assuming that everybody else is also working for the few good eggs still around.
I never said good, I said capable and in my 37 years I have seen some outstanding folk leave the service but each and every time someone stepped in a carried the baton.
Try living in a 12`x 8` box room, 300 miles from home for a tour with sh**e food and too many knobbers in your decision making process and see how quickly you join the PVR club.
You are most fortunate to have a pleasant view from the morale highground on which you persistantly advise is your standpoint. But one mans "tosh" is another mans "blinkers" and it is you that needs to open your eyes and see what debris resides on the squadrons from which you came. It is not a pretty sight, and whilst you hold no kudos with "experience", the fact is that a lack of it contributed significantly to the problems the Puma fleet had/maybe even have.
Lack of experience or lack of supervision? I think back to my time on the Puma and the Bittburg 7 and Poland 5 are shining examples of how the youth of today will always seek to push the boundaries.
There is a Manning crisis unfolding from under your eyes. It is true that there are many simply happy to a job of any description, but it is equally true that the people we need most are choosing to exit stage right. I am sure the 'damage limitation' by Manning will be managed to make the reduction in overall numbers within target, and those that believe nobody cares are spot on.... to a point: The Command-chain and Manning may not care; but those left behind care, those who operate under rescourced and without the benefit of war-story knowledge handed down that will at some stage be reflected in Flight Safety stats.
The vast majority of the first and second tourists on the J have got more real time "war experience" than most of their command chain and without a doubt buckets loads more than their OCU counterparts. Not sure how that stacks up in the rotary world but in my time I seem to recall Shawbury ad it's fair share of Shropshire Permanent Staff.
As I said; the lofty perch on which you sit may be a good job, with good Execs/OC and admin support. I dont begrudge it, but you should value it, for it is becoming a rare comodity. ....and think before assuming that everybody else is also working for the few good eggs still around.
I never said good, I said capable and in my 37 years I have seen some outstanding folk leave the service but each and every time someone stepped in a carried the baton.
Try living in a 12`x 8` box room, 300 miles from home for a tour with sh**e food and too many knobbers in your decision making process and see how quickly you join the PVR club.
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Xeno,
They do say that once you have to resort to insult generally the argument is lost however there is some merit in what accuse me of.
Fat, yes I do admit to being a bit overweight.
Dumb, some would argue that is a pre requisite for my trade.
Happy, Without a doubt as I only have 1 more year to go.
What you forgot to add though was realist.
What 37 years of service so far have taught me is that no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.
I have seen some fantastic people depart early and on time and not once, as in not once did I ever see things grind to a halt because of their passing.
I am not saying you are but if you are one of those precious folk out there who believe that if you PVR the whole pack of cards will come tumbling down then off you go and complete the seven click JPA function
Just remember on your last day, left or right, no one gives a ****
They do say that once you have to resort to insult generally the argument is lost however there is some merit in what accuse me of.
Fat, yes I do admit to being a bit overweight.
Dumb, some would argue that is a pre requisite for my trade.
Happy, Without a doubt as I only have 1 more year to go.
What you forgot to add though was realist.
What 37 years of service so far have taught me is that no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.
I have seen some fantastic people depart early and on time and not once, as in not once did I ever see things grind to a halt because of their passing.
I am not saying you are but if you are one of those precious folk out there who believe that if you PVR the whole pack of cards will come tumbling down then off you go and complete the seven click JPA function
Just remember on your last day, left or right, no one gives a ****
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I think the point is that whilst the RAF has always been able to continue working while individuals leave, anything approaching a 'mass exodus' of experienced folk over a short period of time is unlikely to be handled as well - it's one thing for incredibly experienced person A to leave, and very experienced person B slides seemlessly into place, and to have persons A through M leaving and extremely inexperienced person N suddenly finding he's a flight commander.
The question is whether the RAF can continue to function IF the PVRs and redundancies etc combine to remove a large part of the corporate experience, and it's foolish to assume that this would be handled as easily for a large group as for the odd individual.
By the way, I think 'dry your girly eyes princess' rather undermines your moral high ground wrt
Will the RAF continue when the PVRs go in? Yes. Will the PVRs affect things like operational effectiveness, flight safety and so forth.? You can't answer that, but personally I think it's likely.
Dave
The question is whether the RAF can continue to function IF the PVRs and redundancies etc combine to remove a large part of the corporate experience, and it's foolish to assume that this would be handled as easily for a large group as for the odd individual.
By the way, I think 'dry your girly eyes princess' rather undermines your moral high ground wrt
They do say that once you have to resort to insult generally the argument is lost however
Dave
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Dave,
I am sure I am about to be corrected but I for one have never seen a mass exodus, I have witnessed a whole cu nimb of hot air being spouted about it but never yet seen the "**** it, all out brothers" apocalypse being prophesied in here.
I take on board your other point but I thought my use of the smilie made it banter as opposed to down right rude, but that is purely a perception thing
I am sure I am about to be corrected but I for one have never seen a mass exodus, I have witnessed a whole cu nimb of hot air being spouted about it but never yet seen the "**** it, all out brothers" apocalypse being prophesied in here.
I take on board your other point but I thought my use of the smilie made it banter as opposed to down right rude, but that is purely a perception thing
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
What 37 years of service so far have taught me is that no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.
That SFFP, is a statement of pure, undeniable, fact. It's like taking your hand out of a bucket of water, possibly a few small ripples initially, and then it's like it was never there.
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It's like taking your hand out of a bucket of water, possibly a few small ripples initially, and then it's like it was never there.
I would love to see the stats if Rotary pilots and WSOp appear in the Sept redundancy wish list. But even with the loss of Merlin I doubt there is room for manouvre within the Manning fiqures of these guys.
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I think the bottom line is very much when you get pissed off with life in the military, get out and get on with a new life outside.
For some that will come at the end of 38 years (or however long it is you can stay in before getting booted out!), for others it will be after 8,10,12/16 etc. To each their own - no one is right, no one is wrong - when your time is up, go.
Will the RAF keep functioning - Yes.
Will hard learnt experience be lost - Yes
Is it sad and pitiful to see the military slashed and cut - Yes
Is Life short and you should do what makes you happy - Yes
Just my 2 cents!
To those still in/staying in - big respect guys/girls and keep safe.
For some that will come at the end of 38 years (or however long it is you can stay in before getting booted out!), for others it will be after 8,10,12/16 etc. To each their own - no one is right, no one is wrong - when your time is up, go.
Will the RAF keep functioning - Yes.
Will hard learnt experience be lost - Yes
Is it sad and pitiful to see the military slashed and cut - Yes
Is Life short and you should do what makes you happy - Yes
Just my 2 cents!
To those still in/staying in - big respect guys/girls and keep safe.
SFFP
As I recall the term
has been used across the services and across time to describe someone who is very content with their lot.
I am disapointed that you, of all posters on this forum, should be so precious in light of your penchant for using phrases like
.
Like I said, grow up pal!
Fat Dumb and Happy
I am disapointed that you, of all posters on this forum, should be so precious in light of your penchant for using phrases like
now dry your girlie eyes princess
Like I said, grow up pal!
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no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.
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How many qualified pilots in the RAF?
What proportion are PVRing?
If the proportion is too large there will be too few for the required tasking, and not enough OCU places, let alone instructors, to get trainees up to speed.
Still, there are enough ostriches, both here and in command, to ignore the problem until it's too late.
What proportion are PVRing?
If the proportion is too large there will be too few for the required tasking, and not enough OCU places, let alone instructors, to get trainees up to speed.
Still, there are enough ostriches, both here and in command, to ignore the problem until it's too late.
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and not enough OCU places, let alone instructors, to get trainees up to speed.
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I'm not and have not been for a good few years now for reasons that don't need airing here so not quite sure what your point is? Based at Lye with all that is currently going on there then what on earth is there to be F,D and H about?
But here's the rub, because i am grown up I know that despite being a biggish cog in my trade wheel it matters not a single jot if I leave now or next year as a day later nothing will have changed and someone else be coping comfortably doing what I had previously been tasked with