Tornado F3: 25 Years of Air Defence
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Magic Mushroom (6th Dec 2004, 16:39)
Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
Same thread also mentions last RAF a/a kill as being that of Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 1948, who shot down two Egyptian AF Spitfires which had attacked an RAF base having mistaken it for an Israeli one. (McElhaw was also in a Spit').
thread-drift...
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when did the RAF last shoot down an aircraft?
Being pedantic here, 25th May 1982. Granted, it was another RAF aircraft.
Being pedantic here, 25th May 1982. Granted, it was another RAF aircraft.
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Magic Mushroom (6th Dec 2004, 16:39)
Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
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I am willing to accept that this is true.
In 25 yrs, and supported by only the largest and most powerful deployment of air power ever seen from a coalition of most of the west, the F3 nearly managed to shoot down one third world aircraft.
That's a hell of a record, money well spent
In 25 yrs, and supported by only the largest and most powerful deployment of air power ever seen from a coalition of most of the west, the F3 nearly managed to shoot down one third world aircraft.
That's a hell of a record, money well spent
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I am enjoying the incongruity of being told that I don't know what I am talking about by members of the RAF AD community.
I am RN. You know, that service that has been shooting down enemy aircraft since WW2 on a regular basis? And I am not just talking about Harriers. The fleet has many people who have actually shot down aircraft from ships.
I am RN. You know, that service that has been shooting down enemy aircraft since WW2 on a regular basis? And I am not just talking about Harriers. The fleet has many people who have actually shot down aircraft from ships.
Can I offer a word of advice from someone who may have seen a few more scenarios than you and has looked closely at the campaign in the South Atlantic? .......... And might I add, that includes experience of contingency missions in the Falklands campaign and a couple of tours down there. Put your name down for a course at the AWC. That way when you offer comment on the Forum on RAF capability, it may be informed by fact and not myth.
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Tourist
I don't often post, however, I have to tell you that you are the biggest ****** I have ever read on this forum. See You Next Tuesday.
I hope you get to read this before its deleted.
Please retort.
I don't often post, however, I have to tell you that you are the biggest ****** I have ever read on this forum. See You Next Tuesday.
I hope you get to read this before its deleted.
Please retort.
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Tourist,
I appreciate that you don't like the F3 but please don't forget that you can only shoot down what's flown against you.
Our other airborne platforms (until the Typhoon came along and Shar excepted) did not have credible A-A capabilities. To that end we needed an A-A platform, rightly or wrongly that platform was the F3. It would probably have cost just as much to field a different platform which would have been stronger in some respects (almost certainly in airframe performance) but weaker in others (perhaps SA levels). In my experience, outside the visual arena, the F3 can compete with any (sub Raptor/Eagle) fighter and is certainly the match for a Hornet in the A-A environment.
Please don't let your distaste for a platform cloud the issue that a vital role needed to be performed. The crews of the F3 completed this task to the best of their, and their jet's, abilities and are rightly proud of their role and jet.
Regards,
Dash2
I appreciate that you don't like the F3 but please don't forget that you can only shoot down what's flown against you.
Our other airborne platforms (until the Typhoon came along and Shar excepted) did not have credible A-A capabilities. To that end we needed an A-A platform, rightly or wrongly that platform was the F3. It would probably have cost just as much to field a different platform which would have been stronger in some respects (almost certainly in airframe performance) but weaker in others (perhaps SA levels). In my experience, outside the visual arena, the F3 can compete with any (sub Raptor/Eagle) fighter and is certainly the match for a Hornet in the A-A environment.
Please don't let your distaste for a platform cloud the issue that a vital role needed to be performed. The crews of the F3 completed this task to the best of their, and their jet's, abilities and are rightly proud of their role and jet.
Regards,
Dash2
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Dash 2
You just had to go and be reasonable and ruin my fun!
I don't actually have anything special against the F3.
It is like nearly everything we get. Flawed but we make the most of it usually through the efforts of the operators.
That said, I think it is very important to be realistic about our kit.
It was the statements "Little did I realise how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become" from BEagle, and "I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years."
from soddim that I decided not to let pass.
In "the last few years" the F3's competitors are the F15, F22 and Su27, and not one single poster on here has given one metric to support the argument that it is superior to any of them. Capability is all about comparison to competitors, and it only has an astonishing capability compared to it's own far from illustrious beginings.
It is just farcical to pretend that just because the F3 is all we have had for a long time that it has become some kind of legendary fighter. We all know, even F3 crew, that if we were able to change the procurement decision back then we would have tried to get F15 under license.
The rest is just the noble art of Crab baiting
You just had to go and be reasonable and ruin my fun!
I don't actually have anything special against the F3.
It is like nearly everything we get. Flawed but we make the most of it usually through the efforts of the operators.
That said, I think it is very important to be realistic about our kit.
It was the statements "Little did I realise how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become" from BEagle, and "I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years."
from soddim that I decided not to let pass.
In "the last few years" the F3's competitors are the F15, F22 and Su27, and not one single poster on here has given one metric to support the argument that it is superior to any of them. Capability is all about comparison to competitors, and it only has an astonishing capability compared to it's own far from illustrious beginings.
It is just farcical to pretend that just because the F3 is all we have had for a long time that it has become some kind of legendary fighter. We all know, even F3 crew, that if we were able to change the procurement decision back then we would have tried to get F15 under license.
The rest is just the noble art of Crab baiting
Thread Starter
The rest is just the noble art of Crab baiting....
Incidentally, Tornado ADV and F-15 were designed for totally different mission requirements.
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Tourist you seem to be a compulsive digger of bigger and bigger holes. You clearly have no first hand knowledge of this subject and yet you spout insulting criticism at every post you make.
Do us all a favour and restrict your inane and rude comments to something you know something about.
You are the sort of chap (presume not female?) who should not be allowed on an adult chat forum.
Do us all a favour and restrict your inane and rude comments to something you know something about.
You are the sort of chap (presume not female?) who should not be allowed on an adult chat forum.
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soddim
play the ball, not the man.
Defend your statement "I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years"
Why?
Because it would be unsporting like seal clubbing?
play the ball, not the man.
Defend your statement "I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years"
Why?
Because it would be unsporting like seal clubbing?
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BEagle
"Incidentally, Tornado ADV and F-15 were designed for totally different mission requirements"
Yes.
The F15 was designed for the Air dominance mission.
The F3 was designed to support british industry by bodging a bomber whilst ignoring the devastating effect on our operational capability for 25yrs
"Incidentally, Tornado ADV and F-15 were designed for totally different mission requirements"
Yes.
The F15 was designed for the Air dominance mission.
The F3 was designed to support british industry by bodging a bomber whilst ignoring the devastating effect on our operational capability for 25yrs
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By the way, I would like to say goodbye to the 'F%g Chariot' from a 'Bona Mate'. No fuss, no slurs (bar the obvious banter at the start), but well done fellas. An uneviable task with little recognition; never been an Air Defender but even I as an avowed 'muddy' is more than happy to give you due regard. See you on the flip side fellas, hopefully we all get something that keeps all our skills alive. Best wishes, and God Speed!
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If you were a fighter pilot, Tourist, you would have to have some kind of death wish to face up to a weapons system including the latest missiles and a good radar plus the avionics to provide situational awareness of the kind a Tornado F3 crew have enjoyed for the last few years. That should make it clear to you that there would be considerable risk to your well-being no matter what you were flying.
Yes, there are better fighters around but I bet none of their pilots would relish the opportunity to expose themselves to the risk either. Yes, they would do it if they had to but I bet they would not volunteer.
You should also understand that the days when superior skill and cunning always allowed you to survive air combat are long gone. Nowadays any young man with the latest technology and the ability to use it can completely ruin your day.
The point you need to understand before you annoy any more people who know what the F3 is like from first hand experience is that the aircraft and weapons system started out completely useless as a fighter but many people worked very hard to improve it for many years. Unfortunately, people like you have heard of its' early reputation and assumed that nothing much has changed. People like me know what the changes have been and what it is now capable of and I try again to explain to you that it is now a very capable system - nobody is saying it is the best fighter around but it is nevertheless bloody good at its' job today.
Finally, I would suggest to you that you accept that any knowledge you have of the F3 is at least outdated and more likely just plain wrong.
Yes, there are better fighters around but I bet none of their pilots would relish the opportunity to expose themselves to the risk either. Yes, they would do it if they had to but I bet they would not volunteer.
You should also understand that the days when superior skill and cunning always allowed you to survive air combat are long gone. Nowadays any young man with the latest technology and the ability to use it can completely ruin your day.
The point you need to understand before you annoy any more people who know what the F3 is like from first hand experience is that the aircraft and weapons system started out completely useless as a fighter but many people worked very hard to improve it for many years. Unfortunately, people like you have heard of its' early reputation and assumed that nothing much has changed. People like me know what the changes have been and what it is now capable of and I try again to explain to you that it is now a very capable system - nobody is saying it is the best fighter around but it is nevertheless bloody good at its' job today.
Finally, I would suggest to you that you accept that any knowledge you have of the F3 is at least outdated and more likely just plain wrong.
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soddim
I have no problem with anything you have just said.
A far more reasoned statement.
But I would be interested in knowing what the answer would be if you asked a cross section of the worlds fighter pilots to rank their worst nightmare opposing aircraft scenario.
Do you believe that the F3 would be in the top 5? or 10?
I have no problem with anything you have just said.
A far more reasoned statement.
But I would be interested in knowing what the answer would be if you asked a cross section of the worlds fighter pilots to rank their worst nightmare opposing aircraft scenario.
Do you believe that the F3 would be in the top 5? or 10?
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I would imagine in the top 10 but crew training, ability and specific scenario might well promote it to the top 5.
Unfortunately, it still lacks manoeverability - not so important any more - and it still lacks specific excess power except at low level.
Unfortunately, it still lacks manoeverability - not so important any more - and it still lacks specific excess power except at low level.
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@Tourist
You are of course free to provide your opinion on the Tornado F3. However, as someone who, I presume, has never flown it operationally, your opinion is not worth s@@t; no more than me giving an opinion on the RN's boats and their ability to steam at 25 kts and make tight turns avoiding rocks or the seabed.
I can only conclude that your ignorance of the aircraft is based on the fact you always wanted a backseat ride in the Tornado F3 but you were never given one.
Not a bite - I just get hacked off with the ill informed!
You are of course free to provide your opinion on the Tornado F3. However, as someone who, I presume, has never flown it operationally, your opinion is not worth s@@t; no more than me giving an opinion on the RN's boats and their ability to steam at 25 kts and make tight turns avoiding rocks or the seabed.
I can only conclude that your ignorance of the aircraft is based on the fact you always wanted a backseat ride in the Tornado F3 but you were never given one.
Not a bite - I just get hacked off with the ill informed!