Tornado F3: 25 Years of Air Defence
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First to the Gulf? More haste less speed
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Muscat, Oman
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to demo rad alt height hold as a poor man's GR version in the absence of NVGs to follow the GRs in on an escort job. The bunt downwards was a bit eye opening, but so was the pitch up. Obviously lacked credibility in a turning environment, but was an example of thinking outside the box (bullsh1t business term). Don't know what the final tactics were, but Link 16 picture, AMRAAM equipped, escorting GRs as low as they were, perhaps mixed in the formation. Could be an eye opener for an aggressor. It sucked when it came into service, but going out, it proved its worth.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ghostnav
Laughable.
Defended against the USSR!!!??
Oh yes? how many did you shoot down?
FI?, a lot more time there than anyone else on this website.
And your comment re your friends dying makes you beneath contempt in my book. We have all lost friends, but most don't try to make forum capital from it you cnut.
Geehovah
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.
Go on, somebody tell me again that it is better than an F22 or F15.
Laughable.
Defended against the USSR!!!??
Oh yes? how many did you shoot down?
FI?, a lot more time there than anyone else on this website.
And your comment re your friends dying makes you beneath contempt in my book. We have all lost friends, but most don't try to make forum capital from it you cnut.
Geehovah
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.
Go on, somebody tell me again that it is better than an F22 or F15.
Thread Starter
If you're referring to the occasion when 2 x Fulcrum flew to Farnborough, thunderbird7, then you're talking almost as much bolleaux as tourist - who clearly hasn't the faintest idea about air defence... If 'sticking wepaons on' an inappropriate air platform is the fishead way, then thank heavens they don't have anything other than helicopters to bugger about with these days.
The MiG 29 event occurred on 30 Aug 1988; the politicians had decided that the Fulcrums had to be escorted into Farnborough, so the plan was for a VC10K to carry the journos to film the event as the F3s joined with the MiGs. Due to the limited speed range of the VC10K, the max IAS permitted was relatively low and we also needed to maximise the time available for the journos to do their stuff...
We joined up with our F3s, then turned in to escort Anatoli and his wingman. All went fine, except that one F3 wouldn't get out of the b£oody way and as a result it was quite difficult to position the VC10K in such a position that the BBC, ITN, UP, API, TASS and Flight could get their shots. It was also fairly obvious that the F3 leader had little experience of leading such a mixed formation down through the Ambers and over to Farnborough. We had to ease out as he led us all into cloud
(the Russians had earlier rejected the idea of the VC10K being in close formation), so then had to catch them again once we broke out below...
But the press got their photos and we made the lead story on the 6 o'clock news, so it was a DCO as far as we were concerned. And having Janice Lowe from Flight squirming against my shoulder to get her shots was...rather nice
- and she sorted us out with some Filofaxes (this was the 1980s...) and hosting in the Flight chalet when we later went to the show!
The MiG 29 event occurred on 30 Aug 1988; the politicians had decided that the Fulcrums had to be escorted into Farnborough, so the plan was for a VC10K to carry the journos to film the event as the F3s joined with the MiGs. Due to the limited speed range of the VC10K, the max IAS permitted was relatively low and we also needed to maximise the time available for the journos to do their stuff...
We joined up with our F3s, then turned in to escort Anatoli and his wingman. All went fine, except that one F3 wouldn't get out of the b£oody way and as a result it was quite difficult to position the VC10K in such a position that the BBC, ITN, UP, API, TASS and Flight could get their shots. It was also fairly obvious that the F3 leader had little experience of leading such a mixed formation down through the Ambers and over to Farnborough. We had to ease out as he led us all into cloud
(the Russians had earlier rejected the idea of the VC10K being in close formation), so then had to catch them again once we broke out below...But the press got their photos and we made the lead story on the 6 o'clock news, so it was a DCO as far as we were concerned. And having Janice Lowe from Flight squirming against my shoulder to get her shots was...rather nice
- and she sorted us out with some Filofaxes (this was the 1980s...) and hosting in the Flight chalet when we later went to the show!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ali
No aircraft that has never done it's job can be said to have "proved its worth"
Go on then BEagle, instruct me on the error of my ways. Tell me how the world is indeed banana shaped......
At least the FAA has always known that our aircraft are mostly ****e with occasional good aspects. Anything else is just delusional in the UK forces, though at least more recently when a Typhoon comes to embelish you don't get bored waiting..............
No aircraft that has never done it's job can be said to have "proved its worth"
Go on then BEagle, instruct me on the error of my ways. Tell me how the world is indeed banana shaped......
At least the FAA has always known that our aircraft are mostly ****e with occasional good aspects. Anything else is just delusional in the UK forces, though at least more recently when a Typhoon comes to embelish you don't get bored waiting..............
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SWAPS Inner
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're referring to the occasion when 2 x Fulcrum flew to Farnborough, thunderbird7, then you're talking almost as much bolleaux as tourist..
but it was worth a cheap shot! Why let the facts from someone involved get in the way of a good story?
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geehovah
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.
Tourist
Back in Oct/Nov 99 I locked up an Iraqi MiG declared 'hostile' on JTIDS just inside the no-fly zone about 5 miles from the SkyFlash Launch Success Zone (LSZ). Late Arm was made live and next action was to ditch the tanks when the MiG turned around and went back over the line - my LSZ and excitement shrinking with it! Did the F3 do it's job that day? You bet, sweetlips...and the RIVET JOINT and E3 High Value Assets (HVAs) they were were trying so very hard to shoot down were never threatened. Saddam even rewarded one of his MiG drivers a pair of Silver Pistols for getting close to some HVAs on a previous sortie - so the stakes were high during Op Southern Watch right up to Op Telic in 2003.
This sortie was not unusual and you be wise to remember that not 1 friendly aircraft has been lost whilst F3 has been conducting Offensive Counter Air (sweep or escort) during it's Service; just because it never brought down an enemy aircraft is not a measure of failure in Air Defence (the clue is in the 2nd word!).
Anyway, BEagle, I agree with you, it is an excellent book that I will be proud to show my Grandchildren in 20 or so years time to say "this is what Gramps did". See you at the Cenotaph in my bowler hat in 10 years time and I'll buy you a beer for all the go-go juice you pumped into my aluminium pursuit ship over Saudi, the Adriatic and the Falklands in the past
Aye
LJ
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
This sortie was not unusual and you be wise to remember that not 1 friendly aircraft has been lost whilst F3 has been conducting Offensive Counter Air (sweep or escort) during it's Service; just because it never brought down an enemy aircraft is not a measure of failure in Air Defence (the clue is in the 2nd word!).
Anyway, BEagle, I agree with you, it is an excellent book that I will be proud to show my Grandchildren in 20 or so years time to say "this is what Gramps did". See you at the Cenotaph in my bowler hat in 10 years time and I'll buy you a beer for all the go-go juice you pumped into my aluminium pursuit ship over Saudi, the Adriatic and the Falklands in the past
Aye
LJ
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.
Go on, somebody tell me again that it is better than an F22 or F15.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.
Go on, somebody tell me again that it is better than an F22 or F15.
And you obviously don't know simple physics if you don't think you could get a kill from 20k below the other guy! Its certainly more difficult, but is possible. Best you retire to a Cockers P and reminisce about when the FAA had aircraft
Also, I've been above Block 5 in a F3 without a pressure jerkin (very stupid if the canopy pops or both engines flame out) and you don't need to 'zoom climb' to get to Block 4 in the old girl above .85M (which happens to be above most airliners between FL340 and FL390) - that was with no tanks and a 2x2 load out and a gun. I remember a Flt Cdr (who did not remain one for long) going to Block 6 having gone a bit mad as runner up in the Thrust SSC competition to become its driver (instead it went to the equally mad "dead dog"!) - the engines did "complain a bit" on that particular sortie!!!
But I believe I may be entering the realms of "protesting too much", so I'll STFU and invite you to do the same.
LJ
But I believe I may be entering the realms of "protesting too much", so I'll STFU and invite you to do the same.
LJ
Thread Starter
Leon, I would be happy to accept the beer!
I recall the first AAR trips with the F2 - not very inspiring. Particularly when we did a trial with one in 4-tank fit at FL150 and found that 20 deg AoB was a mite excessive. Other trials supporting the Warton Lightning and Tornado ADV prototype once caused the Lightning mate to remark "I'm not sure who's supposed to be fighter and who's supposed to be the target!". But things moved forward apace and the true ace in the pack was Link16. As Chris Colville (a squire and a gent) remarked, it was "The biggest advance in air defence since radar".
I managed to persuade 'Them' to approve a UOR for the VC10K and TriStar to be fitted with Link16 for OP. ENGADINE in 1999 and it worked exactly as advertised. But we didn't have enough jets fitted with it, unfortunately - although I did once fly a VC10K3 with Link16 and serviceable RWR, plus a navigator who was capable enough to use it. Even over the North Sea, the extra SA was astonishing and we were still watching a fight going on when we were on final approach to Brize (though we were on conditional radio silence, so passive only!). Link16 used with ASRAAM will lead to a totally silent death for many an opponent, given clever tactics from the E-3D - and a BVR shot with AMRAAM even more so.
The lack of knowledge about other peoples' capabilities has always been a problem within the non-FJ community. After my tour on the tin triangle, I realised that much of what we thought would have defeated a semi-active AAM was in fact a load of utter nonsense - we didn't even know about beam look-up firings or search attacks and thought that a fighter had to lock-on to be able to fire.... Most of us thought that being able to out turn a threat was all there was to it...
A pity that the RN gave up the FA2 SHAR - that was another top interceptor and with Link16 and a full AAM fit would certainly have been a highly capable fleet defence interceptor, if a little short-legged. Whereas the GR9 was virtually useless as an interceptor.
Perhaps someone will see the sense of bugging out of the F-35 programme and will instead press for the acquisition of F-18E/F/G for the RN's cocktail party carriers?
BTW, I think I know the chap who lost out to Dead Dog in his attempt to secure the Thrust SSC seat. Didn't Bastard Bill try to hang him for busting the RtoS after that zoom climb? Until someone happened to ask whether the Lightning RtoS had included reheat-rotation take-offs in Bastard Bill's day - whereupon it all went rather quiet....
I recall the first AAR trips with the F2 - not very inspiring. Particularly when we did a trial with one in 4-tank fit at FL150 and found that 20 deg AoB was a mite excessive. Other trials supporting the Warton Lightning and Tornado ADV prototype once caused the Lightning mate to remark "I'm not sure who's supposed to be fighter and who's supposed to be the target!". But things moved forward apace and the true ace in the pack was Link16. As Chris Colville (a squire and a gent) remarked, it was "The biggest advance in air defence since radar".
I managed to persuade 'Them' to approve a UOR for the VC10K and TriStar to be fitted with Link16 for OP. ENGADINE in 1999 and it worked exactly as advertised. But we didn't have enough jets fitted with it, unfortunately - although I did once fly a VC10K3 with Link16 and serviceable RWR, plus a navigator who was capable enough to use it. Even over the North Sea, the extra SA was astonishing and we were still watching a fight going on when we were on final approach to Brize (though we were on conditional radio silence, so passive only!). Link16 used with ASRAAM will lead to a totally silent death for many an opponent, given clever tactics from the E-3D - and a BVR shot with AMRAAM even more so.
The lack of knowledge about other peoples' capabilities has always been a problem within the non-FJ community. After my tour on the tin triangle, I realised that much of what we thought would have defeated a semi-active AAM was in fact a load of utter nonsense - we didn't even know about beam look-up firings or search attacks and thought that a fighter had to lock-on to be able to fire.... Most of us thought that being able to out turn a threat was all there was to it...
A pity that the RN gave up the FA2 SHAR - that was another top interceptor and with Link16 and a full AAM fit would certainly have been a highly capable fleet defence interceptor, if a little short-legged. Whereas the GR9 was virtually useless as an interceptor.
Perhaps someone will see the sense of bugging out of the F-35 programme and will instead press for the acquisition of F-18E/F/G for the RN's cocktail party carriers?
BTW, I think I know the chap who lost out to Dead Dog in his attempt to secure the Thrust SSC seat. Didn't Bastard Bill try to hang him for busting the RtoS after that zoom climb? Until someone happened to ask whether the Lightning RtoS had included reheat-rotation take-offs in Bastard Bill's day - whereupon it all went rather quiet....
BEagle
Your recollection of BB is correct but the silence was not as deafening as it was for the Fighting Cocks Flt Cdr's tonka engines!!!
You can hold me to that beer in 2021 (or sooner!)
LJ
Your recollection of BB is correct but the silence was not as deafening as it was for the Fighting Cocks Flt Cdr's tonka engines!!!
You can hold me to that beer in 2021 (or sooner!)
LJ
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In the sun
Age: 52
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been red air for the F3, albeit not so recently, so I am bemused somewhat at what Tourist writes when he appears to have no credibility in the AD role (as he admits). Sure, the F3 flies a profile that requires it to get in block 4 at decent speed before it can ID but that doesn't seem too different to any F-jet I've towed for (including US).
As for warfighting, it did its job v well as history tells. Why would an Mig or export Mirage ever want to challenge an F3? It wouldn't because it'd lose. Comparing it with an F22...silly really, two different beasts, of different generations and also on the same side, Duh! Wake up Tourist, you admittedly sound like a knob who has no AD background or understanding of the threat. Jealous maybe? Compared to a Russian Mig, are you out of your mind? Your views are about 25 years out of date, when the Tornado ADV had no radar, JTIDS or long range BVR missile capability; it demonstrates your naivety.
Tourist, if I have ever served with you, I am embarrassed at having done so. Your lack knowledge of control of the air power or general air power awareness indicates a prejudiced point of view that I would associate with a novice. The scary thing is, some people reading this may think you know what you are talking about...
...I'll happily buy the book and recognise the great service the F3 has performed over the last 25 years. The Typhoon, I am sure, will perform equally as well.
Monkey
As for warfighting, it did its job v well as history tells. Why would an Mig or export Mirage ever want to challenge an F3? It wouldn't because it'd lose. Comparing it with an F22...silly really, two different beasts, of different generations and also on the same side, Duh! Wake up Tourist, you admittedly sound like a knob who has no AD background or understanding of the threat. Jealous maybe? Compared to a Russian Mig, are you out of your mind? Your views are about 25 years out of date, when the Tornado ADV had no radar, JTIDS or long range BVR missile capability; it demonstrates your naivety.
Tourist, if I have ever served with you, I am embarrassed at having done so. Your lack knowledge of control of the air power or general air power awareness indicates a prejudiced point of view that I would associate with a novice. The scary thing is, some people reading this may think you know what you are talking about...
...I'll happily buy the book and recognise the great service the F3 has performed over the last 25 years. The Typhoon, I am sure, will perform equally as well.
Monkey
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crazy monkey
Exactly where have I compared it to a Mig?
Su27 recent variants yes, and it is sadly lacking.
You say silly to compare it to an F22 because it is a different generation, but that is exactly what I was objecting to. It is being suggested that for the last few years it has really come good.
No it hasn't, because things have moved on, and in the last few years the competition has vastly outstripped it.
It was a dog when created, and it is now just what it should have been then, but too late.
If it is as good as you all say, then stop wasting money on this Typoon which you seem to suggest is uneccessary if F3 is a winner, or accept that it is dross that only third world nations would be impressed by.
The proof is always in the export customers.
Especially ones that don't require a bribe............
Exactly how many countries are sitting back saying "Oh if only we could afford the F3"
Frodo Monkey
Where did I talk about turning with an F15?
I am talking about the whole package. Name one single aspect where the modern F3 is superior to a modern F15, let alone an F22.
Re fighting from 20K below, I never said it was impossible, but you are obviously at a massive disadvantage, as you perfectly well know, and that is a crap way to start a fight.
Exactly where have I compared it to a Mig?
Su27 recent variants yes, and it is sadly lacking.
You say silly to compare it to an F22 because it is a different generation, but that is exactly what I was objecting to. It is being suggested that for the last few years it has really come good.
No it hasn't, because things have moved on, and in the last few years the competition has vastly outstripped it.
It was a dog when created, and it is now just what it should have been then, but too late.
If it is as good as you all say, then stop wasting money on this Typoon which you seem to suggest is uneccessary if F3 is a winner, or accept that it is dross that only third world nations would be impressed by.
The proof is always in the export customers.
Especially ones that don't require a bribe............
Exactly how many countries are sitting back saying "Oh if only we could afford the F3"
Frodo Monkey
Where did I talk about turning with an F15?
I am talking about the whole package. Name one single aspect where the modern F3 is superior to a modern F15, let alone an F22.
Re fighting from 20K below, I never said it was impossible, but you are obviously at a massive disadvantage, as you perfectly well know, and that is a crap way to start a fight.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist you are a complete ass.
I tried to give you first hand an opinion from one who has flown the aircraft for 25 years and all you could do was use your uninformed opinion to call me 'mental'
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
I tried to give you first hand an opinion from one who has flown the aircraft for 25 years and all you could do was use your uninformed opinion to call me 'mental'
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
