Tornado F3: 25 Years of Air Defence
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"no more than me giving an opinion on the RN's boats and their ability to steam at 25 kts and make tight turns avoiding rocks or the seabed."
I like your choice of words considering the RN's record of running warships onto rocks and Subs onto sand banks.
I like your choice of words considering the RN's record of running warships onto rocks and Subs onto sand banks.
Quote:
I've just read the section about Red Flag and the kill ratios obtained by the F3 force against the best the USAF had to offer were exceptionally good.
Obviously you are aware that at RF there are aggressors who play the job of the bad guys. Part of their role is to not use the full capabilities of their platform but to provide the most accurate representation of threat systems.
So to say it is against the best the USAF had to offer is misleading at best and willful misrepresentation at worst. Some of the Best, yes, but with playing a game by a very different set of rules to what they would choose...
I've just read the section about Red Flag and the kill ratios obtained by the F3 force against the best the USAF had to offer were exceptionally good.
Obviously you are aware that at RF there are aggressors who play the job of the bad guys. Part of their role is to not use the full capabilities of their platform but to provide the most accurate representation of threat systems.
So to say it is against the best the USAF had to offer is misleading at best and willful misrepresentation at worst. Some of the Best, yes, but with playing a game by a very different set of rules to what they would choose...
Fast forward to COPE THUNDER in Alaska in the late 90s - Red Air but able to fly our own tactics. Kill ratio average about 6:1 in F3 favour against F14, F15, F16, F18 and F111. All 'machine kills' with tapes to verify them. On one day a disgruntled Eagle driver accused us of 'cheating' for leaving a pair on the ground on strip alert to join the fight halfway through - the Boss laughed and asked if the Eagle driver had ever heard of QRA!!!
Finally, when did the RAF last score aircraft kills after WWII?
1 May 82 - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 shot down north of West Falkland by Flt Lt Barton RAF using Sidewinder (4.10 pm). Lt Perona ejected safely
1 May 82 - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over East Falkland by Flt Lt Penfold RAF using Sidewinder (4.40 pm). Lt Ardiles killed
21 May 82 - Chinook CH-47C of CAB 601 destroyed on ground near Mount Kent by Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3 using 30mm cannon (8.00 am).
21 May 82 - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 badly damaged on ground near Mount Kent in same attack by Sqdn Ldr Pook and Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3's using 30mm cannon (8.00 am). Destroyed on 26th in same position by Sqdn Ldr Pook using CBU's
21 May 82 - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc also shot down near Swan Island in Falkland Sound in same incident by Flt Lt Leeming RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using 30mm cannon (3.12 pm). Lt Marquez was killed
23 May 82 - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 flew into ground near Shag Cove House, West Falkland attempting to evade Flt Lt Morgan RAF in No.800 NAS Sea Harrier (10.30 am). All crew escaped.
8 Jun 82 - Two A-4B Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Flt Lt Morgan RAF and a third by Lt D Smith in No.800 NAS Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (4.45 pm). Lt Arraras, Lt Bolzan and Ensign Vazquez killed.
You see that's the problem with you fish-heads, you have very short memories like a Gold Fish (granted these kills are coming up for 29 years ago).
LJ
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Those air to air kills were in a Sea Harrier which belonged to the RN
That's why I asked "RAF" - a number of RAF types had kills in Korea but they were on attachment to the RAAF and the USAF - I know, my uncle was one of them
ground strikes are not "shot down" ("shot up perhaps"?)
- you could also include hits in Egypt and Iraq on that basis
The fact is that the RAF has not actually shot anyone down since August 1945 - some of their pilots have managed it but flying someone else's kit -
That's why I asked "RAF" - a number of RAF types had kills in Korea but they were on attachment to the RAAF and the USAF - I know, my uncle was one of them
ground strikes are not "shot down" ("shot up perhaps"?)
- you could also include hits in Egypt and Iraq on that basis
The fact is that the RAF has not actually shot anyone down since August 1945 - some of their pilots have managed it but flying someone else's kit -
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And here's me thinking that since 1914, kills have always been awarded to the pilot and not the aircraft.
Did all that suddenly change in 1982?
Navy snobbery in trying to play down the involvement of RAF Harrier AND Sea Harrier pilots during the Falklands War does it no credit at all.
Tourist is just carrying on this pathetic attitude.
Did all that suddenly change in 1982?
Navy snobbery in trying to play down the involvement of RAF Harrier AND Sea Harrier pilots during the Falklands War does it no credit at all.
Tourist is just carrying on this pathetic attitude.
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Goodbye F3
With just over 20 years on the jet when I left the mob, I couldn't resist adding my tuppence worth to the thread. To keep things in perspective, Beagle's 'how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become' quote (and I've yet to read the book) is probably coloured by what I imagine is a fairly sympathetic and even affectionate description of a jet that inspired a wide range of emotions from the folks who flew and maintained her. Ex-F4 crews hated it to begin with, while Lightning drivers were initially impressed by the radar (z-list onwards). Astonishingly capable? No. Very capable? Absolutely.
There's still a lot of dated folklore around - yes, the F3 lacks high level performance, particularly when you load it up Mike fit with TRD, Phimat, and 8 rockets - but it gets there when it needs to - it just uses a lot of fuel. Shame it's a pig in that fit at height, but it doesn't stop it doing the job - for Tourist, it gets high enough quickly enough for AMRAAM employment unless you think the Space Shuttle is the threat. The high ground is still important, but you don't need to camp there. It was used for DCA CAPs in GW1 because it had no jammer - a prerequisite for OCA over Iraq. The Stage 1 radar came in with a lot of UOR tweaks just in time for the campaign, a step change but still behind some US radars of the day (it was actually better than many F16 and F18 radars for a while).
The jet was deemed fine for Deny Flight until Scott O'Grady got shot down, and even then it continued flying over Bosnia (still no jammer) until Deliberate Force kicked off, when the CAOC withdrew it to CAP over the Adriatic. Much baiting from the Harrier mates on 4 Sqn until the night-time Banja Luka strike. NVG capability (4 Sqn hadn't worked up on gogs yet) over-rode the lack of a jammer and the F3s went back feet dry to sweep as part of the gorilla, followed by support for the mission that went looking for the downed Mirage crew. Only slowed down the GR7 mates' banter though.
Southern Watch saw the jet fitted with TRD and Link-16, and the yanks regularly made the F3s DCA Commander (the UK was streets ahead with JTIDS implementation, and the USAF liked how we used it). Sadly, the yanks seemed to know more about the jet's abilities than most of the RAF - too many R1 crews thought they had an Eagle HVAAD CAP all to themselves when it was actually a combo of 2 or 4 F3s with 4 or 2 F15s covering the U-2, the package and the tankers, AWACS et all, because we could keep a handle on where everyone was - not all F15s had data-link at the time. GR4 corporate knowledge was a little better, but not always.
For Telic 1, ASRAAM had arrived but AMRAAM wasn't fitted. While it's true the air threat never materialised, no-one expected that to be the case - particularly in light of the (rarely mentioned) MiG25 and MiG23 activity in the week before the campaign started. There's a lot of hoop spouted about what the F3s actually did in Telic, and I've often heard it said they were never in harm's way. Truth is, CAPing in Balad SE's overhead, committing against reported helos north of Baghdad or flying shotgun for the single GR4 over central Baghdad because he had no wingman never even made it into the MISREPs because it was seen as routine compared with what the muds were doing. Likewise the SAMs and Triple-A. Lots of respect for the muds who were too busy to even know the F3 was there (which means the fighter guys are doing their job). 11 Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability but didn't deploy (MoD politics played a part).
Bit of a ramble to put the record straight, so I'll finish by saying how I rate the jet.
F3 v MiG-29? Done it and he could never get close enough to turn and burn (and I'm talking SkyFlash and ASRAAM).
F3 v SU-27? Ditto - big ac that is not as easy a tally as you'd expect, but if he can't even find you before you've timed out... and the Slammer makes it easier.
F3 v SU-30? Rather not meet him by choice - but would if had to.
F3 v MiG-25? Gets a mention from Southern Watch - difficult target at Mach 2.5 but not impossible (Eagle had the same concerns) - easy meat if he came down off his perch, no threat to the F3 if he stayed high.
F3 v airliner? For Tourist - takes burner and care to VID, that's all.
Helicopters? Played with everything from a Gazelle through a Chinook to the Hip and Hind - takes patience is all.
Finally, it's a nonsense to compare with Raptor etc but the F15, F16 and F18 might be more valid comparisons. Latest variants' weapons systems arguably have the edge in general and the airframes have always outperformed the F3 , but just go back a few years to when the F3 finally got AMRAAM (politics delayed it by nearly 10 years) and it stood up well to its contemporaries in terms of weapon system performance. Proof was in the Red Flag A-A debriefs. Leon J is not exaggerating - I was there when the F3 achieved the highest recorded Semi-Active kill ratio in Red Flag - independently verified. And that was pre-AMRAAM and JTIDS.
Top 10 or top 5? First 5 years of service - neither. Moved top 10 with Stage 1 and then top 5 with Stage 3 and associated weapons suite. It's a travesty that it took so long for the F3 to achieve its potential - MoD amateur politics bears the blame - everything on the jet today was meant to be in the Mid-Life-Upgrade that was cancelled after GW1. Some subsequent upgrades / mods that were tested (and cheap) never saw the light of day because they were 'capability enhancements' that might have impacted Typhoon procurement...
After all that I think I might actually buy the book - see if it tells it like it is, warts and all.
There's still a lot of dated folklore around - yes, the F3 lacks high level performance, particularly when you load it up Mike fit with TRD, Phimat, and 8 rockets - but it gets there when it needs to - it just uses a lot of fuel. Shame it's a pig in that fit at height, but it doesn't stop it doing the job - for Tourist, it gets high enough quickly enough for AMRAAM employment unless you think the Space Shuttle is the threat. The high ground is still important, but you don't need to camp there. It was used for DCA CAPs in GW1 because it had no jammer - a prerequisite for OCA over Iraq. The Stage 1 radar came in with a lot of UOR tweaks just in time for the campaign, a step change but still behind some US radars of the day (it was actually better than many F16 and F18 radars for a while).
The jet was deemed fine for Deny Flight until Scott O'Grady got shot down, and even then it continued flying over Bosnia (still no jammer) until Deliberate Force kicked off, when the CAOC withdrew it to CAP over the Adriatic. Much baiting from the Harrier mates on 4 Sqn until the night-time Banja Luka strike. NVG capability (4 Sqn hadn't worked up on gogs yet) over-rode the lack of a jammer and the F3s went back feet dry to sweep as part of the gorilla, followed by support for the mission that went looking for the downed Mirage crew. Only slowed down the GR7 mates' banter though.
Southern Watch saw the jet fitted with TRD and Link-16, and the yanks regularly made the F3s DCA Commander (the UK was streets ahead with JTIDS implementation, and the USAF liked how we used it). Sadly, the yanks seemed to know more about the jet's abilities than most of the RAF - too many R1 crews thought they had an Eagle HVAAD CAP all to themselves when it was actually a combo of 2 or 4 F3s with 4 or 2 F15s covering the U-2, the package and the tankers, AWACS et all, because we could keep a handle on where everyone was - not all F15s had data-link at the time. GR4 corporate knowledge was a little better, but not always.
For Telic 1, ASRAAM had arrived but AMRAAM wasn't fitted. While it's true the air threat never materialised, no-one expected that to be the case - particularly in light of the (rarely mentioned) MiG25 and MiG23 activity in the week before the campaign started. There's a lot of hoop spouted about what the F3s actually did in Telic, and I've often heard it said they were never in harm's way. Truth is, CAPing in Balad SE's overhead, committing against reported helos north of Baghdad or flying shotgun for the single GR4 over central Baghdad because he had no wingman never even made it into the MISREPs because it was seen as routine compared with what the muds were doing. Likewise the SAMs and Triple-A. Lots of respect for the muds who were too busy to even know the F3 was there (which means the fighter guys are doing their job). 11 Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability but didn't deploy (MoD politics played a part).
Bit of a ramble to put the record straight, so I'll finish by saying how I rate the jet.
F3 v MiG-29? Done it and he could never get close enough to turn and burn (and I'm talking SkyFlash and ASRAAM).
F3 v SU-27? Ditto - big ac that is not as easy a tally as you'd expect, but if he can't even find you before you've timed out... and the Slammer makes it easier.
F3 v SU-30? Rather not meet him by choice - but would if had to.
F3 v MiG-25? Gets a mention from Southern Watch - difficult target at Mach 2.5 but not impossible (Eagle had the same concerns) - easy meat if he came down off his perch, no threat to the F3 if he stayed high.
F3 v airliner? For Tourist - takes burner and care to VID, that's all.
Helicopters? Played with everything from a Gazelle through a Chinook to the Hip and Hind - takes patience is all.
Finally, it's a nonsense to compare with Raptor etc but the F15, F16 and F18 might be more valid comparisons. Latest variants' weapons systems arguably have the edge in general and the airframes have always outperformed the F3 , but just go back a few years to when the F3 finally got AMRAAM (politics delayed it by nearly 10 years) and it stood up well to its contemporaries in terms of weapon system performance. Proof was in the Red Flag A-A debriefs. Leon J is not exaggerating - I was there when the F3 achieved the highest recorded Semi-Active kill ratio in Red Flag - independently verified. And that was pre-AMRAAM and JTIDS.
Top 10 or top 5? First 5 years of service - neither. Moved top 10 with Stage 1 and then top 5 with Stage 3 and associated weapons suite. It's a travesty that it took so long for the F3 to achieve its potential - MoD amateur politics bears the blame - everything on the jet today was meant to be in the Mid-Life-Upgrade that was cancelled after GW1. Some subsequent upgrades / mods that were tested (and cheap) never saw the light of day because they were 'capability enhancements' that might have impacted Typhoon procurement...
After all that I think I might actually buy the book - see if it tells it like it is, warts and all.
Thread Starter
Navy snobbery in trying to play down the involvement of RAF Harrier AND Sea Harrier pilots during the Falklands War does it no credit at all.
If your read Mog's excellent book Hostile Skies, perhaps the best book written about the 1982 South Atlantic air war, on p303 he describes how, during the cruise home, FONAC had sent a signal stating that 'there will be a large amount of press coverage when the aircraft arrive at Yeovilton and that all the pilots are to be dark blue; no crabs allowed'.
The signal was later countermanded; however, the only RAF pilot on the final disembarkation had no kills to his credit.
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HH, I'm pretty sure that there is a very proud (ex) member of the RAF regiment who would beg to differ with your "don't count" argument. Equally one or two Harrier pilots who happened to be showing the RN how to 'do it' in 1982. 
Not quite correct I'm afraid. On a RED FLAG in the mid 90s I was Red Air with the Aggressors in the F3 - they made us fly Soviet tactics simulating AA-10a Alamos and AA-8c; "tethered goat" would be an understatement! However, on the last day the Aggressors told us we could use JTIDS and our normal tactics. I fired out all missiles and bagged 2x F16, 1x F15 and a F4G Wild Weasel (2 shot kills using ACMI missile simulations). The debrief was pretty bloody and the USAF 1-star asked the US to 'stay behind' and the Brits are 'cleared off' - there were some pretty miserable Eagle drivers on the Las Vegas strip that night! Also, I got a real kill on that day that landed us in some deep poo-poo and a diplomatic tangle - but that's not for revelation on this forum!
However I'm sure that for every story you have about handing it to the yanks that there is an F-16 driver simulating a Mig29 who got in and took out a four ship of F-3's with archers... As I was saying generally the red air side is handcuffed to a specific threat simulation. Take the gloves off and fight red flying with blue tactics, weapons and SA and red air would generally do better (no matter what the platform F-15/16/18). So what beagle said about an F3 getting good kill ratio's at a flag should hardly come as a surprise (given that generally they would have been flying Blue).
Not disagreeing with you, as has been mentioned, I don't want to try to take on any fighter with a good radar, Link, and Amraam... doesn't sound too good for the bad guys long term health prospects...
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Beagle
"when the aircraft arrive at Yeovilton".
For younger readers this event in July 1982 marked only the return of 800 Naval Air Squadron from Operation Corporate. HMS Invincible and her Sea Harriers from 801 Naval Air Squadron stayed on in the South Atlantic until relieved by HMS Illustrious and 809 NAS as did all the RAF's Harrier GR3's from 1(F) Squadron which had disembarked ashore.
SHARS and Harriers were the only fixed wing aircraft available until a full length runway was made suitable for Phantoms in October 1982 after which Invincible and the SHARS returned home.
So no more Navy/RAF conspiracy theories please, at least on this point
Back on thread though, I am sad to see the F3 go. It had become a tried and tested platform and I still think two pairs of eyes are better than one
"when the aircraft arrive at Yeovilton".
For younger readers this event in July 1982 marked only the return of 800 Naval Air Squadron from Operation Corporate. HMS Invincible and her Sea Harriers from 801 Naval Air Squadron stayed on in the South Atlantic until relieved by HMS Illustrious and 809 NAS as did all the RAF's Harrier GR3's from 1(F) Squadron which had disembarked ashore.
SHARS and Harriers were the only fixed wing aircraft available until a full length runway was made suitable for Phantoms in October 1982 after which Invincible and the SHARS returned home.
So no more Navy/RAF conspiracy theories please, at least on this point
Back on thread though, I am sad to see the F3 go. It had become a tried and tested platform and I still think two pairs of eyes are better than one
Heathrow Harry
I am amused by how you rate a force (i.e the RAF AD force) as to when it was used for the reason intended. By that I assume if it hasn't been used as intended then it is a waste of money and why should we have bothered? As mentioned earlier by that reckoning the nuclear deterrent was, and remains, a waste of money. Personally I'm rather glad that the presence of the UK AD force (and the nukes) over the years has meant they have not had to be used in anger. But at least they were there, ready and capable, should the need arise.
In some ways it's no different to your home / car / health / pet insurance. Costs a lot of money but you'll be bloody glad you have it when you need it.
I am amused by how you rate a force (i.e the RAF AD force) as to when it was used for the reason intended. By that I assume if it hasn't been used as intended then it is a waste of money and why should we have bothered? As mentioned earlier by that reckoning the nuclear deterrent was, and remains, a waste of money. Personally I'm rather glad that the presence of the UK AD force (and the nukes) over the years has meant they have not had to be used in anger. But at least they were there, ready and capable, should the need arise.
In some ways it's no different to your home / car / health / pet insurance. Costs a lot of money but you'll be bloody glad you have it when you need it.
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Many of the EX F3 mates seem to be getting rather touchy. A slight against a lump of metal is not a slight against the lump of flesh twiddling knobs and shouting on the radio.
How much of the F3 capability can be put down to the crew, and their training, and how much to the aircraft?
Would our AD capability have been better served in a different airframe, all other things being equal?
How much of the F3 capability can be put down to the crew, and their training, and how much to the aircraft?
Would our AD capability have been better served in a different airframe, all other things being equal?
There's not much as pleasureable as being asked to leave the debrief room so the General Commanding a USAF Air Force can explain to his wingman why he's just been killed by an F3 crew (with a stupid callsign) in his shiny new wonderjet, again.
Make the best of what you've got, and make them fight your way. I never liked telephone boxes anyway.
Make the best of what you've got, and make them fight your way. I never liked telephone boxes anyway.
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Attitude and training made the difference, but the jet was not as bad as (the uninformed) generally make out. Most of us would rather have had US hardware but made the best out of what was often a frustrating but equally often satisfying jet.
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Wrathmonk
I never said it was ALL a waste of money - on that basis anything unused is a waste of money which is obvious idiocy
All I was pointing out is that the facts I stated aren't exactly the headlines the RAF uses - I was amazed myself TBH
The Navy would be in much the same boat if they hadn't sunk the Belgrano
What is food for thought is was ALL that money and effort well spent........
I never said it was ALL a waste of money - on that basis anything unused is a waste of money which is obvious idiocy
All I was pointing out is that the facts I stated aren't exactly the headlines the RAF uses - I was amazed myself TBH
The Navy would be in much the same boat if they hadn't sunk the Belgrano
What is food for thought is was ALL that money and effort well spent........
Fox3Fox2FoxYou
Just a minor point for your otherwise excellent post. We had the best SA6 jammer on Deny Flight and Decisive Edge from late 1995 into 1996 for 'Feet Dry' operations in Bosnia - the TRD or affectionately known "turd".
IIRC it was, and still is, one of the most effective SP Jammers on the market (apart from the ****e packaging and the lead weight counterbalance!).
All the best
LJ
Just a minor point for your otherwise excellent post. We had the best SA6 jammer on Deny Flight and Decisive Edge from late 1995 into 1996 for 'Feet Dry' operations in Bosnia - the TRD or affectionately known "turd".
IIRC it was, and still is, one of the most effective SP Jammers on the market (apart from the ****e packaging and the lead weight counterbalance!).
All the best
LJ
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Leon,
Deliberate Force happened before the TRD was cleared. Post-Deliberate Force, I think 29 may have deployed with it on Deny Flight, and yes, it was almost certainly the best jammer of its day against a variety of threats. The RAFs reluctance to develop it properly was nothing short of criminal - unsurprisingly, an AN/ALQ TRD with half the drag was fitted to the F16CJs in Southern Watch and Iraqi Freedom. The F3 was still dragging around TRD in a fat modified BOZ pod with a PHIMAT on the other wing as combined counterbalance and extra chaff dispenser. The tight-fisted approach to the whole thing (capability enahancement black-balled again) led to one TRD (instead of 2) and a freakin parachute in the pod so we could recover every decoy.
Deliberate Force happened before the TRD was cleared. Post-Deliberate Force, I think 29 may have deployed with it on Deny Flight, and yes, it was almost certainly the best jammer of its day against a variety of threats. The RAFs reluctance to develop it properly was nothing short of criminal - unsurprisingly, an AN/ALQ TRD with half the drag was fitted to the F16CJs in Southern Watch and Iraqi Freedom. The F3 was still dragging around TRD in a fat modified BOZ pod with a PHIMAT on the other wing as combined counterbalance and extra chaff dispenser. The tight-fisted approach to the whole thing (capability enahancement black-balled again) led to one TRD (instead of 2) and a freakin parachute in the pod so we could recover every decoy.
HH
An impossible question to answer as it relies on hindsight! If we could all see into the future and make our procurement decisions based on the hindsight we gain from being there then life would be sweet. However, to have a stab at it I would say yes - the F3 force has maintained QRA in UK and the FI and ensured the relevant airspace has been kept secure for years. Just because they haven't had to resort to using their available weapons does not make it a crap platform or a waste of money!
And no, I'm not from an AD background.
However, do you consider your car/house/health/pet etc insurance to be money well spent? After all, in broad terms, the military is one huge insurance policy. When we're needed we can do no wrong (post-Falklands for instance) and it's all money well spent. But when, in Joe Publics eye, there is nothing going on it's a different story. Rudyard Kipling got it right.
What is food for thought is was ALL that money and effort well spent........
And no, I'm not from an AD background.
However, do you consider your car/house/health/pet etc insurance to be money well spent? After all, in broad terms, the military is one huge insurance policy. When we're needed we can do no wrong (post-Falklands for instance) and it's all money well spent. But when, in Joe Publics eye, there is nothing going on it's a different story. Rudyard Kipling got it right.
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Fox3Fox2FoxYou
I disagree....
RAF politics played a huge part
But do agree...
11 Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability but didn't deploy (MoD politics played a part).
RAF politics played a huge part
But do agree...
XI(F) Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability