British Future MPA
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concept
Addition; retractable 20mm turret to draw a line in the water to convince pirates, smuglers, rebels etc, asymmetric warfare. Similar to OV-10.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...1132924124.jpg
Any suggestions? Not sure about the hose and drogues yet..
E.g. what would be the best cabin configurations for 6 operators with lots of screens? side by side? how about interaction between them, would it help when everyone can see each other, from the corner of their eyes? to give signs, read body language ?
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Any suggestions?
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Pious Pilot: I hope that blue senior officer is dense, the CofG looks way off.
I wanted to put maindeck fuel tanks close to the CoG, but I guess you don't want to have them in line with the hpt ..
WillDAQ Quote: Any suggestions?
That you should lay off the gold plating? This thing makes Nimrod look like an airliner with a laptop strapped to one of the seats and a hostess throwing life rings out the window.
That you should lay off the gold plating? This thing makes Nimrod look like an airliner with a laptop strapped to one of the seats and a hostess throwing life rings out the window.
A machine like this should be cheaper (smaller, lighter, fuel efficient, less crew) and have more applications. It's not to be another Nimrod. E.g. MPA could transfer excess fuel if they relieve eachother in patrol areas.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...MPAstudy_5.jpg
About the 20mm, the only thing an MPA today does is make pirates hurry, getting on board before something with teeth arrives.
Last edited by keesje; 4th Apr 2011 at 13:44.
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Please post a drawing of your proposed aircraft showing the bomb bay, the sonobuoy dispenser(s), and the MAD boom.
Compare to these pix of the P-3:
US Navy P-3Cs
File:P-3 Orion underside view 20080614.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Compare to these pix of the P-3:
US Navy P-3Cs
File:P-3 Orion underside view 20080614.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Modern Elmo: Please post a drawing of your proposed aircraft showing the bomb bay, the sonobuoy dispenser(s), and the MAD boom.
Last edited by keesje; 4th Apr 2011 at 22:41. Reason: spelling
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Keesje, here are some benchmark numbers for your design:
P-3C P-7A
Max Takeoff Gross Weight 139,760 lbs 171,350 lbs
Flight Design Gross Weight (3.0g) 135,000 lbs 165,000 lbs
Maneuver Weight (3.5g) --- 137,000 lbs
Design Zero Fuel Weight 77,200 lbs 105,000 lbs
Maximum Payload 22,237 lbs 38,385 lbs
Fuel Capacity 62,587 lbs 66,350 lbs
Maximum Landing Weight 114,000 lbs 144,000 lbs
Design Landing Weight 103,880 lbs 125,190 lbs
Sonobuoy Capacity 84 150-300
Wing Span 99.6 ft 106.6 ft
Wing Area 1300 sq ft 1438 sq ft
Fuselage Length* 116.8 ft 112.7 ft
Height 34.2 ft 32.9 ft
Federation of American Scientists :: P-7 Long Range Air ASW-Capable Aircraft (LRAACA)
* Hmmm, fuselage length for proposed P-7 is wrong. Wonder what else is wrong with that list?
P-3C P-7A
Max Takeoff Gross Weight 139,760 lbs 171,350 lbs
Flight Design Gross Weight (3.0g) 135,000 lbs 165,000 lbs
Maneuver Weight (3.5g) --- 137,000 lbs
Design Zero Fuel Weight 77,200 lbs 105,000 lbs
Maximum Payload 22,237 lbs 38,385 lbs
Fuel Capacity 62,587 lbs 66,350 lbs
Maximum Landing Weight 114,000 lbs 144,000 lbs
Design Landing Weight 103,880 lbs 125,190 lbs
Sonobuoy Capacity 84 150-300
Wing Span 99.6 ft 106.6 ft
Wing Area 1300 sq ft 1438 sq ft
Fuselage Length* 116.8 ft 112.7 ft
Height 34.2 ft 32.9 ft
Federation of American Scientists :: P-7 Long Range Air ASW-Capable Aircraft (LRAACA)
* Hmmm, fuselage length for proposed P-7 is wrong. Wonder what else is wrong with that list?
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Here's another important figure of merit. Better check yourselves out, younger comrades:
Key genital measurement linked to male fertility
By Deborah Zabarenko, Environment Correspondent
WASHINGTON | Fri Mar 4, 2011 12:10am EST
(Reuters) - When it comes to male fertility, it turns out that size does matter.
The dimension in question is not penis or testicle size, but a measurement known as anogenital distance, or AGD.
Men whose AGD is shorter than the median length -- around 2 inches (52 mm) -- have seven times the chance of being sub-fertile as those with a longer AGD, according to a study published on Friday in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.
That distance, measured from the anus to the underside of the scrotum, is linked to male fertility, including semen volume and sperm count, the study found. The shorter the AGD, the more likely a man was to have a low sperm count.
...
This offers the prospect of a relatively simple screening test for men, said study co-author Shanna Swan of the University of Rochester Medical Center.
"It's non-invasive and anybody can do it, and it's not sensitive to the kinds of things that sperm count is sensitive to, like stress or whether you have a cold or whether it's hot out," Swan said in a telephone interview.
...
Key genital measurement linked to male fertility | Reuters
Key genital measurement linked to male fertility
By Deborah Zabarenko, Environment Correspondent
WASHINGTON | Fri Mar 4, 2011 12:10am EST
(Reuters) - When it comes to male fertility, it turns out that size does matter.
The dimension in question is not penis or testicle size, but a measurement known as anogenital distance, or AGD.
Men whose AGD is shorter than the median length -- around 2 inches (52 mm) -- have seven times the chance of being sub-fertile as those with a longer AGD, according to a study published on Friday in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.
That distance, measured from the anus to the underside of the scrotum, is linked to male fertility, including semen volume and sperm count, the study found. The shorter the AGD, the more likely a man was to have a low sperm count.
...
This offers the prospect of a relatively simple screening test for men, said study co-author Shanna Swan of the University of Rochester Medical Center.
"It's non-invasive and anybody can do it, and it's not sensitive to the kinds of things that sperm count is sensitive to, like stress or whether you have a cold or whether it's hot out," Swan said in a telephone interview.
...
Key genital measurement linked to male fertility | Reuters
Apologies if this has been mentioned before - it's about the Libyan Coast Guard Vessel Vittoria firing on sundry merchant shipping on 28 March.
Anyway, the said Vittoria was schtumphed by a P-3, says the US Navy
Food for thought when considering the need for future MPA, and its ability to "complete the sensor-to-shooter kill chain"?
airsound
Anyway, the said Vittoria was schtumphed by a P-3, says the US Navy
Vittoria was engaged and fired upon by a U.S. Navy P-3C Maritime Patrol aircraft with AGM-65 Maverick missiles; the first time that these missiles have ever been fired on a hostile vessel by a P-3C.
"P-3s have provided 24/7 ISR maritime domain awareness critical to the protection of U.S. and coalition surface assets in the JOA since the initiation of Odyssey Dawn," said Capt. Dan Schebler, commodore, Commander Task Force 67. "This engagement demonstrates the ability of the P-3 to complete the sensor-to-shooter kill chain, in parallel providing a key capability to the Joint Force Maritime Component Commander and the Composite Warfare Commander."
"P-3s have provided 24/7 ISR maritime domain awareness critical to the protection of U.S. and coalition surface assets in the JOA since the initiation of Odyssey Dawn," said Capt. Dan Schebler, commodore, Commander Task Force 67. "This engagement demonstrates the ability of the P-3 to complete the sensor-to-shooter kill chain, in parallel providing a key capability to the Joint Force Maritime Component Commander and the Composite Warfare Commander."
airsound
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Also, as mentioned earlier re the specs of the Lockheed P-7 were sometimes in error...
I'm here to say that not all the specs, or indeed the cut-away graphic of the Boeing AEW&C are correct either!
I'd love to get a look-in of the flight deck of that Airbus Military refurbished P3C that was just completed, ready for delivery.
Cheers,
EW73
I'm here to say that not all the specs, or indeed the cut-away graphic of the Boeing AEW&C are correct either!
I'd love to get a look-in of the flight deck of that Airbus Military refurbished P3C that was just completed, ready for delivery.
Cheers,
EW73
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A machine like this should be cheaper (smaller, lighter, fuel efficient, less crew) and have more applications. It's not to be another Nimrod. E.g. MPA could transfer excess fuel if they relieve eachother in patrol areas.
I'd also challenge the idea of smaller and lighter. If there's one thing that's been learned during the development of Sentinel it was that small aircraft run out of space more quickly.
The fueling issue, potential to receive fuel would be useful (but not essential if it's got a 12hr plus endurance anyway). Delivering fuel is a waste of time, this is what we've got tankers for. If we wanted to have a flexible multirole tanking capability we'd buy the add ons for A400M which would make it into service far sooner than a new build aircraft.
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Modern Elmo: Keesje, here are some benchmark numbers for your design:
P-3C P-7A
P-3C P-7A
The tanker is a tanker, a ASW platform is ASW platform and an interceptor is an interceptor days are behind us. One of the reasons IMO the US aerospace lobby decided the USAF KC30 had to be killed is that a quick look at the aircrafts cargo/range and tonne-mile costs not only caused red alert in the KC767 department but also in the C-17 and KC-10/KC-Y departments. It would spoil the business as it has been for the last 50 years.
airsound: Apologies if this has been mentioned before - it's about the Libyan Coast Guard Vessel Vittoria firing on sundry merchant shipping on 28 March.
Times and enemies are different. Big enemies became neighbours, small friends enemies.
WillDAQ: I think you're overlooking development costs somewhat. There's little point in a fuel efficient aircraft if it costs twice as much to purchase. You're using a new design radical configuration which will be expensive to develop and all the small efficiency improvements in the world aren't going to make it financially viable compared to something like the P3, which we could buy off the shelf tomorrow.
Of course it wil take E8-10 billion Euro's to develop, but a lot of technology can be transferred from existing modern aircraft. Not everything needs to be reinvented. And doing a Nimrod, P3/P7 has the export potential of a Nimrod, P3/P7.
WillDAQ: Delivering fuel is a waste of time, this is what we've got tankers for. If we wanted to have a flexible multirole tanking capability we'd buy the add ons for A400M which would make it into service far sooner than a new build aircraft.
An aircraft bringing its own maintenance crew / maintenance tools, being able to refuel, function as a powerfull sensor for intelligence, able to perform a SAR and patrol with minimum adjustments saves money. Less transport, tanker, helihours, flight cycles, crews, specialized fleets, or smaller ones.
An aircraft ..... being able to refuel, function as a powerfull sensor for intelligence, able to perform a SAR and patrol with minimum adjustments saves money.
airsound
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Bigger aircraft cost more, specially if they are based on 50+ year old designs. Who will buy them for the next 40 years if they don't fit the requirements anyway? It just doesn't make sense.
You're also making the assumption that the requirements stay the same for 40 years, which is highly unlikely, more likely is that new technology will come along that needs to be retroactively added. This is most easily achieved on a larger aircraft that has a larger weight growth margin and more space to fit the stuff.
There's also a strong argument to be made for sticking with a commercial airframe from the perspective of support. One of the downfalls of Nimrod was that it became an orphan fleet long after the commercial equivalent was out of service. Support for airliners rolling off the production line today will run for at least the next twenty years, if not longer in the case of common parts. None of the expensive custom widgets typically associated with aging military aircraft.
Of course it wil take E8-10 billion Euro's to develop, but a lot of technology can be transferred from existing modern aircraft. Not everything needs to be reinvented. And doing a Nimrod, P3/P7 has the export potential of a Nimrod, P3/P7.
Just bring in the big tankers to refuel somewhere far away. What are the total costs of having that capability globally? Plus that capability for helicopters.. we just can't afford!
To be perfectly honest, an MPA conversion for A400M (ideally consisting of equipment predominantly palletised in the hold with a custom rear ramp for stores, fuel pods and some external array hardpoints) has the potential to make very good sense. The aircraft is at the very start of what's going to be a long in service life. It has a large payload, long range, is quiet and we're already getting a fleet of them.
An aircraft bringing its own maintenance crew / maintenance tools, being able to refuel, function as a powerfull sensor for intelligence, able to perform a SAR and patrol with minimum adjustments saves money. Less transport, tanker, helihours, flight cycles, crews, specialized fleets, or smaller ones.
MPA tanking does not make up the bulk of tanker work, we don't heli tank and we only divert ISTAR assets to MPA when they're needed. You're adding expensive capabilities to the aircraft that we barely use as it is and while it would be wonderful to have a flying swiss army knife, we can't afford one right now.
As an exercise in what's possible the design is interesting and original, but it's the hard financial realities of capability vs. cost that killed Nimrod and will kill any attempt at a bespoke replacement.