Well done to the Herc boys and girls
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Trim Stab, only a minor glance at this morning's media and "in-the-know" forums would show things are happening on these flights which your bizjet insurers would be the first to tell you to avoid, unless you are able to surpress SAFIRE from your cabin?
How do you know the ground-fire wasn't because the aircraft was obviously military? There are no reports of widespread fighting around Benghazi now. The indications are that it is fully under control of the opposition. The opposition would have no reason to fire upon evidently civilian aircraft, as reports suggest that they are doing everything they can to keep their economy and infrastructure running.
As I said earlier, it is excellent that the RAF are able to do this if it is genuinely militarily necessary. But if they are doing it for partly for publicity reasons for HMG (as Stopstart alludes), then they should be charging full commercial rates to the oil companies and paying landing fees to the locals, just like commercial operators do.
As I said earlier, it is excellent that the RAF are able to do this if it is genuinely militarily necessary. But if they are doing it for partly for publicity reasons for HMG (as Stopstart alludes), then they should be charging full commercial rates to the oil companies and paying landing fees to the locals, just like commercial operators do.
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Trim Stab,
How a commercial airport operates!!!
The first 2 C130's operated in/out of a disused airstrip which can be clearly seen as disused on Google Earth and without any ground equipment/support, ATC, fire cover etc.
Now, as a commercial operator, what sort of time frame, particularly over a weekend, do you reckon it would take to acquire the necessary dispensations to operate in/out of a disused airstrip that needed to be cleared by the locals prior to the aircraft arriving and what sort of time frame, and at what cost, do you reckon it would take to have the appropriate (a non airfield, no ATC, no fire cover, in a location of civil unrest etc.) operator insurances in place?
How a commercial airport operates!!!
The first 2 C130's operated in/out of a disused airstrip which can be clearly seen as disused on Google Earth and without any ground equipment/support, ATC, fire cover etc.
Now, as a commercial operator, what sort of time frame, particularly over a weekend, do you reckon it would take to acquire the necessary dispensations to operate in/out of a disused airstrip that needed to be cleared by the locals prior to the aircraft arriving and what sort of time frame, and at what cost, do you reckon it would take to have the appropriate (a non airfield, no ATC, no fire cover, in a location of civil unrest etc.) operator insurances in place?
Trim stab
These people were picked up from desert airstrips next to oil company installations, not Benghazi International airport. Who owns/operates these airstrips do you think? I suspect the oil companies do.
I don't know if you have ever served in the military in any capacity, your profile doesn't say that you have. Of course mine doesn't either but I did serve 15 years in the RAF as an Avionics tech.
If you have no military experience then perhaps it would be better if you refrained from posting on this topic. Your major gripe appears to be that you feel that you are losing potential work due to the actions of the RAF.
To that end perhaps you can answer the following questions:-
1) How many pax can you get on your aircraft?
2) How would your company go about assessing the situation on the ground, whether it was safe to operate into the area in question or not?
3) If on arriving at the airfield the situation had changed and armed personnel approached your aircraft offering violence if you did not co-operate what would you do?
4) Why do you think these aircraft had SF personnel on board?
Bear in mind that many members of the British armed forces face an uncertain future due to the recent SDSR. All members have seen their T&C's eroded over recent years, us civilians are not unique in that respect.
You say you only get paid when you fly? Well I am a contract aircraft mechanic, I only get paid when I work. In recent times jobs have been thin on the ground as the recession has hit everyone. You, me and the RAF.
In short, this thread is here so people can show their appreciation of the crews who flew, and the personnel who supported, these sorties. If you feel that you can't do that then why post here at all?
And how will the Libyan economy survive this brazen attempt by the RAF to undermine it? I imagine their oil reserves might help in that respect.
Now dry your eyes.
These people were picked up from desert airstrips next to oil company installations, not Benghazi International airport. Who owns/operates these airstrips do you think? I suspect the oil companies do.
I don't know if you have ever served in the military in any capacity, your profile doesn't say that you have. Of course mine doesn't either but I did serve 15 years in the RAF as an Avionics tech.
If you have no military experience then perhaps it would be better if you refrained from posting on this topic. Your major gripe appears to be that you feel that you are losing potential work due to the actions of the RAF.
To that end perhaps you can answer the following questions:-
1) How many pax can you get on your aircraft?
2) How would your company go about assessing the situation on the ground, whether it was safe to operate into the area in question or not?
3) If on arriving at the airfield the situation had changed and armed personnel approached your aircraft offering violence if you did not co-operate what would you do?
4) Why do you think these aircraft had SF personnel on board?
Bear in mind that many members of the British armed forces face an uncertain future due to the recent SDSR. All members have seen their T&C's eroded over recent years, us civilians are not unique in that respect.
You say you only get paid when you fly? Well I am a contract aircraft mechanic, I only get paid when I work. In recent times jobs have been thin on the ground as the recession has hit everyone. You, me and the RAF.
In short, this thread is here so people can show their appreciation of the crews who flew, and the personnel who supported, these sorties. If you feel that you can't do that then why post here at all?
And how will the Libyan economy survive this brazen attempt by the RAF to undermine it? I imagine their oil reserves might help in that respect.
Now dry your eyes.
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Trim Stab
If we follow your reasoning to a logical conclusion then the Military SAR Helicopter crews in UK would have to demand a credit or debit card from persons in distress prior to conducting a rescue.
If we follow your reasoning to a logical conclusion then the Military SAR Helicopter crews in UK would have to demand a credit or debit card from persons in distress prior to conducting a rescue.
Last edited by cazatou; 28th Feb 2011 at 11:36.
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Well done guys.....
noted you appeared to be carrying spare wheels just in case....... bet that would have been a record wheel change if needed.
Landing fees...... I could see that one..... Hello this is the RAF, we are planning an unannounced clandestine operation in to your country to rescue some EXPats tonight, do you have a handling agent please?
I Wonder if the Israeli's called Idi Amin ahead to ask permission when they visited Entebbe LOL
noted you appeared to be carrying spare wheels just in case....... bet that would have been a record wheel change if needed.
Landing fees...... I could see that one..... Hello this is the RAF, we are planning an unannounced clandestine operation in to your country to rescue some EXPats tonight, do you have a handling agent please?
I Wonder if the Israeli's called Idi Amin ahead to ask permission when they visited Entebbe LOL
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Not one of those push-me-pull-you wokka things was it?
I mean, they've not even got wings - dammit man!
Well done to all those concerned, especially the ones on standby for Option 2 (whatever it happened to be), rarely do these things happen without a contingency plan which has to be manned too.
What are the rations like out of Luqa these days? They used to do great ham - and considering where they were going, quite appropriate
I mean, they've not even got wings - dammit man!
Well done to all those concerned, especially the ones on standby for Option 2 (whatever it happened to be), rarely do these things happen without a contingency plan which has to be manned too.
What are the rations like out of Luqa these days? They used to do great ham - and considering where they were going, quite appropriate
Avionker - your arguments are all rational if it is true that they were evacuated out of unprepared strips under genuine threat from hostile locals. I'm not very convinced about the severity of the alleged ground threat though - I suspect that if it was as high as is being reported by the some, then there would have been a much more complex ground operation to secure the landing area than there appears to have been (just putting a few SF on the ground first to provide int is not securing an airfield, as I'm sure you know).
Moreover, these oil company compounds do actually have their own security and would be well able to defend themselves against the threat from looters or gangs of thugs. Admittedly, they would be outgunned by a well-armed and organised militia force, but it seems from reports from evacuees that the newly organised local militias were offering to protect the oil installations - after all it is in their own interests to keep the economy running.
BTW, our insurance was valid for Libya last time we checked a few days ago. On occasions in the past when we have had to pay a premium to visit other areas with civil unrest we passed the cost on to the client. We would definitely still consider charters to anywhere in Libya that our aircraft performance allows us to go. After all, it is nothing like as dangerous as flying into Baghdad used to be, and as you know civilian aircraft were operating into there throughout the occupation, even after some were hit (eg DHL Airbus in 2003).
Moreover, these oil company compounds do actually have their own security and would be well able to defend themselves against the threat from looters or gangs of thugs. Admittedly, they would be outgunned by a well-armed and organised militia force, but it seems from reports from evacuees that the newly organised local militias were offering to protect the oil installations - after all it is in their own interests to keep the economy running.
BTW, our insurance was valid for Libya last time we checked a few days ago. On occasions in the past when we have had to pay a premium to visit other areas with civil unrest we passed the cost on to the client. We would definitely still consider charters to anywhere in Libya that our aircraft performance allows us to go. After all, it is nothing like as dangerous as flying into Baghdad used to be, and as you know civilian aircraft were operating into there throughout the occupation, even after some were hit (eg DHL Airbus in 2003).
Trim Stab ..... possibly arriving at a FSTA crewroom near you .... soon!
So do you, or do you not, still think that the oil companies should be billed?
And I would never get into FSTA for a variety of reasons! But I hope that they employ a few pilots who have an understanding of how commercial operations work (unlike most on this thread), who have been to places like Libya before (unlike most on this thread).
Last edited by Trim Stab; 28th Feb 2011 at 14:30.
Getting back to the original theme of this topic, well done to all concerned.
I wonder how many of the voices of doom here would moan if they were in a similar position. They would be only too pleased to see a Herk coming over the horizon to rescue them.
I wonder how many of the voices of doom here would moan if they were in a similar position. They would be only too pleased to see a Herk coming over the horizon to rescue them.
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Minutes of COBRA committee:
OK chaps, it's all going pear shaped in Libya, we've about 1000 people to get out, about half of whom are in the desert. Civvy t***s refused to fly and left us in the cack, so it's all hands on deck for a mil operation.
RN - HMS Cumberland already on task, HMS York taking on stores to assist. We'll have a TLAM sub on hand too in case it gets out of hand, but let's keep that one under our hat.
RAF - They aren't playing ball, so it's going to have to be a forced infil & exfil. We'd better take spares in case it's no fun on the ground. They still have some semblance of air defences, so let's have the southern European countries provide top cover. Germans are tagging along with a couple of Transalls for their guys. Doubtless an AWACS required to coordinate it all".
Army - We've already got SF troops on the ground, but we'll take another dozen or so on the aircraft. Oh, and we'll probably need a C17 for the ****load of ammo we'd like to take. We'll also need a wokka or two in case it goes a bit Pete Tong in the ulu.
Obscure Treasury official - "Has anyone given any thought to the landing fees to be paid at the desert strips?"
"We've got two warships, the SAS, and half a dozen RAF aircraft, not to mention the other nations. It's big boys rules, and you want to dick about looking for a cashier's window?"
OK chaps, it's all going pear shaped in Libya, we've about 1000 people to get out, about half of whom are in the desert. Civvy t***s refused to fly and left us in the cack, so it's all hands on deck for a mil operation.
RN - HMS Cumberland already on task, HMS York taking on stores to assist. We'll have a TLAM sub on hand too in case it gets out of hand, but let's keep that one under our hat.
RAF - They aren't playing ball, so it's going to have to be a forced infil & exfil. We'd better take spares in case it's no fun on the ground. They still have some semblance of air defences, so let's have the southern European countries provide top cover. Germans are tagging along with a couple of Transalls for their guys. Doubtless an AWACS required to coordinate it all".
Army - We've already got SF troops on the ground, but we'll take another dozen or so on the aircraft. Oh, and we'll probably need a C17 for the ****load of ammo we'd like to take. We'll also need a wokka or two in case it goes a bit Pete Tong in the ulu.
Obscure Treasury official - "Has anyone given any thought to the landing fees to be paid at the desert strips?"
"We've got two warships, the SAS, and half a dozen RAF aircraft, not to mention the other nations. It's big boys rules, and you want to dick about looking for a cashier's window?"
Trim Stab
One thing I would never do is follow you. Anywhere. Ever. Nothing personal.
And my one-liner had nothing to do with my view on payment. However, I still believe the FCO / MOD (note - government departments, not individual services - there were more than just RAF involved
) should be reimbursed for the evacuations (as was the case for those rescued from Egypt - £600 a head if runour is to be believed). If Ascot managed to negotiate a discount on landing fees at Malta all credit to them - make a change for the MOD not to be excessively charged. Who pays that final bill - individual or company - is up to the T&Cs / morals of that particular individual/company.
I would also suspect the military option is far more flexible, in many many ways, in its approach to getting the job done.
All my own views.
Guess you're going to be a right 'barrack room lawyer' / jobsworth at Brize .....
Roadster280
One thing I would never do is follow you. Anywhere. Ever. Nothing personal.
And my one-liner had nothing to do with my view on payment. However, I still believe the FCO / MOD (note - government departments, not individual services - there were more than just RAF involved
) should be reimbursed for the evacuations (as was the case for those rescued from Egypt - £600 a head if runour is to be believed). If Ascot managed to negotiate a discount on landing fees at Malta all credit to them - make a change for the MOD not to be excessively charged. Who pays that final bill - individual or company - is up to the T&Cs / morals of that particular individual/company.I would also suspect the military option is far more flexible, in many many ways, in its approach to getting the job done.
All my own views.
Guess you're going to be a right 'barrack room lawyer' / jobsworth at Brize .....
Roadster280
Wrathmonk - my point is that the oil companies should pay for evacuations. These companies pay big money to former SIS and FCO personnel to give strategic security advice at head office level, and also big money to former military officers to provide tactical security planning at local level. This advice covers all aspects of contingency planning for exactly this sort of emergency. Part of that planning is to have a budget and a plan for emergency evacuation.
The more responsible oil companies started evacuating non-essential personnel some time ago, using commercial flights (we did one). Other companies have not - even on those BBC witness reports linked to by Avionker, you will see an example of a company that has chosen not to evacuate its personnel, as it considers them "essential". It is completely wrong to reward companies who have not acted responsibly by giving them free evacuation assets, when other more responsible companies have paid for them.
I am all for the RAF providing a service when it is commercially impossible - my argument is simply that it should not be FREE. These companies should be billed - and penalised with a heavy bill - for not having used commercial flights when it was still possible.
It would also be wrong for the RAF to provide free evacuation for PR/political purposes from airfields that are still open to commercial operators, if there are still commercial operators willing and able to fly into them.
The only time the RAF should be doing free evacuation flights is when it is commercially impossible and it is militarily imperative.
The more responsible oil companies started evacuating non-essential personnel some time ago, using commercial flights (we did one). Other companies have not - even on those BBC witness reports linked to by Avionker, you will see an example of a company that has chosen not to evacuate its personnel, as it considers them "essential". It is completely wrong to reward companies who have not acted responsibly by giving them free evacuation assets, when other more responsible companies have paid for them.
I am all for the RAF providing a service when it is commercially impossible - my argument is simply that it should not be FREE. These companies should be billed - and penalised with a heavy bill - for not having used commercial flights when it was still possible.
It would also be wrong for the RAF to provide free evacuation for PR/political purposes from airfields that are still open to commercial operators, if there are still commercial operators willing and able to fly into them.
The only time the RAF should be doing free evacuation flights is when it is commercially impossible and it is militarily imperative.
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Trim Stab,
How do you know these evacuations will be for free, do you appreciate the size of the bill that USA presented to Kuwait some years ago?
As far as I'm concerned, as a UK taxpayer, I'd prefer my money be spent on aircraft and personnel I am already paying for rather than those aircraft and personnel sit idle whilst further expenditure is incurred paying for someone else's aircraft and personnel, i.e. I'm already paying these peoples salaries and I'm not prepared to pay your salary also!!!
Hopefully the MoD will spend so much money in the region they won't be able to afford the 200 million required to scrap the Nimrods.
How do you know these evacuations will be for free, do you appreciate the size of the bill that USA presented to Kuwait some years ago?
As far as I'm concerned, as a UK taxpayer, I'd prefer my money be spent on aircraft and personnel I am already paying for rather than those aircraft and personnel sit idle whilst further expenditure is incurred paying for someone else's aircraft and personnel, i.e. I'm already paying these peoples salaries and I'm not prepared to pay your salary also!!!
Hopefully the MoD will spend so much money in the region they won't be able to afford the 200 million required to scrap the Nimrods.