Well done to the Herc boys and girls
Trim
Funnily enough I almost agree 100%
.
The companies will always try to get VFM and, in theory (according to the FCO) the MOD is only used 'as a last resort' so lowest bidder wins! Where the RAF Hercs and associated pers carried out their rescue missions were, IMHO, 'commercially unviable'. It is arguable whether the HMS CUMB rescue could have been 'let' to commercial contract but, at the end of the day, the job got done (probably far quicker) and, as far as I understand, all who wanted to leave have done so.
Enough of the thread drift. A good job, in potentially very difficult circumstances, by all 3 services as well as the commercial sector. Let's hope what really happened, both in the desert and in the corridors of Whitehall, will be out in the public domain sooner rather than later.
Funnily enough I almost agree 100%
.The companies will always try to get VFM and, in theory (according to the FCO) the MOD is only used 'as a last resort' so lowest bidder wins! Where the RAF Hercs and associated pers carried out their rescue missions were, IMHO, 'commercially unviable'. It is arguable whether the HMS CUMB rescue could have been 'let' to commercial contract but, at the end of the day, the job got done (probably far quicker) and, as far as I understand, all who wanted to leave have done so.
Enough of the thread drift. A good job, in potentially very difficult circumstances, by all 3 services as well as the commercial sector. Let's hope what really happened, both in the desert and in the corridors of Whitehall, will be out in the public domain sooner rather than later.
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It would also be wrong for the RAF to provide free evacuation for PR/political purposes from airfields that are still open to commercial operators, if there are still commercial operators willing and able to fly into them.
The only time the RAF should be doing free evacuation flights is when it is commercially impossible and it is militarily imperative.
The only time the RAF should be doing free evacuation flights is when it is commercially impossible and it is militarily imperative.
Good job all round by Albert IMO
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FiveLive is reporting that one of the pilots was hit in the helmet by small arms fire. Second time in the recent past that helmets have stood up to small arms rounds, I think an additional well done is required for the engineers behind them!
So what you are really saying then TS, is that you should get the job and make your wodge, unless its too dodgy, in which case, send the military in to do it
No, not at all.
All I am saying is that 2 Group should be more commercially aware (as I argued in a thread about six months ago). They should put in place guidelines for degrading civil security situations, whereby they charge for their services when in direct competition with civilian operators, do not subsidise incompetent companies who do not put in professional evacuation plans for their staff, and only initiate free humanitarian flights when civilians are in direct danger through no fault of their own, and there is no alternative commercial means to evacuate them.
These guidelines should be published for not only the benefit of commercial operators, and likely commercial clients such as oil companies(and their insurance) but also for politicians. If these guidelines were published, it would avoid "trial by tabloid" which occured in this instance, whereby politicians are cornered into taking action at the taxpayers expense.
It would also avoid the ludicrous situation where - according to StopStart who is a Herc truckie at BN - that the RAF "justify" these flights because it is good practice for the crews! If 2 Group had a commercial arm, they would have plenty of practice flying all over the world - and probably in more modern aircraft than they have. At least FSTA is a step in the right direction.
By the way, I saw on the news that the Libyan opposition have apologised for shooting at the Herc - as I supposed in my earlier post they actually mistook it for a Ghadaffi aircraft.
And for the prats who are laughing at my question about whether the RAF paid landing fees - it just shows how far out of touch with reality you are.
I have no idea where the RAF landed - perhaps they landed in a remote desert strip, without prior permission, having previously secured the strip with ground forces. In which case, it could be regarded as an act of war bu the Libyan regime, by any allied states, and indeed possibly by the UNSC.
Possibly they landed at a private airstrip, owned by an oil company who invited them in, in order to get free evacuation of their staff when, if they were a professionaly run company, they would have paid commercial operators to evacuate their non-essential staff when it was still possible, and would have a decent contingency plan to protect and victual their essential staff for an appropriate time.
Or perhaps they landed at a commercial airstrip - in which case if the RAF didn't pay landing fees then they are the same level as some thieving commercial operators who run away without paying, thereby stealing a competive advantage from commercial operators who do pay fees, and also depriving airport staff of their living.
Last edited by Trim Stab; 28th Feb 2011 at 18:35.
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TS,
Whilst i broadly agree that companies should, somehow, be levied for the services provided, the commercial option was superceded by events in this case.
Yes, you may have been offered a contract to Sabha, but the Scottish oilworker on perma-transmit to the BBC wasn't screaming for his company to go get him was he?!?
You're beginning to sound like a troll - credit were it's due...well done all those involved
Whilst i broadly agree that companies should, somehow, be levied for the services provided, the commercial option was superceded by events in this case.
Yes, you may have been offered a contract to Sabha, but the Scottish oilworker on perma-transmit to the BBC wasn't screaming for his company to go get him was he?!?
You're beginning to sound like a troll - credit were it's due...well done all those involved
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Trim Stab -interesting thoughts on landing an aircraft in the desert being akin to an act of war! I guess some of the residents of Northern Ireland who's relatives were killed in the troubles by Libyan supplied weapons would have similar thoughts towards the Libyan regime -possibly the widows of Lockerbie might also feel the same! I personally dont give two hoots where the RAF lands its aircraft in Libya -fantastic for the crews to get some training and great that Malta is supporting the effort.
So in essence sad that Gaddafi isnt getting his landing fees but not so sad for the various nations who have suffered at the hands of his state sponsored terrrorism -long may the flights continue!
So in essence sad that Gaddafi isnt getting his landing fees but not so sad for the various nations who have suffered at the hands of his state sponsored terrrorism -long may the flights continue!
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Trim Stab,
On Google Earth find the town of 'Awjilah' then scan, not very far, in an 8:30 to 9 o'clock direction to an airstrip identified, on GE, as 'Oxy A103'.
Any idea what the big white 'X' painted on the runway surface suggests?
On Google Earth find the town of 'Awjilah' then scan, not very far, in an 8:30 to 9 o'clock direction to an airstrip identified, on GE, as 'Oxy A103'.
Any idea what the big white 'X' painted on the runway surface suggests?
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I have to admit I am also impressed with the "rebels" offering an apology for shooting at our Herc, stating they thought the Aircraft was one of Gaddafi's...
In which case, it could be regarded as an act of war bu the Libyan regime
Lets be frank, they've (the regime) got other things on thier minds at the moment..
TS in case you havent grasped the concept yet, the RAF (not uniquely in the world of military avation) doesn't just do things like this on a whim. They are authorised, or directed from above and once the order has been given, (by the government) they carry it out. Perhaps if you are sufficiantly disgusted by the event, or have any further questions regarding the payments of landing fee's or the impact that 3 flights may have had on the regions economy you should write to your MP.
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TS
Can you tell us whether the insurers of the aircraft you operate would be willing to permit them to be used in the way you envisage? I suspect that cover would be either be very expensive or unobtainable.
These are not of course issues for military hardware or HMG. Also how would the company cover personal injury/death to any employees should things go wrong?
Might this have been part of the "tech delay" at LGW when the FCO was trying to charter a B757?
MB
Can you tell us whether the insurers of the aircraft you operate would be willing to permit them to be used in the way you envisage? I suspect that cover would be either be very expensive or unobtainable.
These are not of course issues for military hardware or HMG. Also how would the company cover personal injury/death to any employees should things go wrong?
Might this have been part of the "tech delay" at LGW when the FCO was trying to charter a B757?
MB
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Germans are at it now as well
Secret military mission into Libya - Africa - IOL | Breaking News | South Africa News | World News | Sport | Business | Entertainment | IOL.co.za
Secret military mission into Libya - Africa - IOL | Breaking News | South Africa News | World News | Sport | Business | Entertainment | IOL.co.za
Separately, Germany said its air force had evacuated 132 people also from the desert during a secret military mission on Saturday.
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said Sunday that two German military planes landed on a private runway belonging to the Wintershall AG company, evacuating 22 Germans and 112 others and flying them to the Greek island of Crete
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said Sunday that two German military planes landed on a private runway belonging to the Wintershall AG company, evacuating 22 Germans and 112 others and flying them to the Greek island of Crete
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Libya was once a monarchy.......
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"Gaddafi? who??? Uprising??? don't look at as us, this thing is so slow it's taken us decades to get here "
RAF Transports last visit? El Adem Libya 1965
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Bravo Ascoteers!
Well done to all - in the air and on the ground. But for these high-calibre sky- gods and sky-godesses, probably, it was 'just another walk in the park'.......?
Fly safe,
flipster
Well done to all - in the air and on the ground. But for these high-calibre sky- gods and sky-godesses, probably, it was 'just another walk in the park'.......?
Fly safe,
flipster