dead_pan

I know the rebellions aren't going well in these countries but thats no way to describe them. One usually uses an apostrophe.

Finally, the real reason the yanks were reluctant to commit to the action in Libya - they're saving themselves for the big one.

VinRouge

airborne_artist

That'll never catch on. The whole naval aviation concept is just a conspiracy to scupper the RAF/land-based aircraft, don't you know

just another jocky

Nope, it is part of an overall capability, a cog in the wheel, a piece of the jigsaw. Not an end in itself. No-one is denying that it has capabilities, but it has huge limitations too. When will you lot stop it, I'm getting bored.

Wensleydale

Quote:

Amidst this light blue glossy, does anyone know what an "Ellamy" is?

The single seat fighter pilot arrived in Italy and declared "Where the 'ell am I?". The press then misconstrued and the name has stuck.

dead_pan

I thought it was "El Alamein" the first time I heard it. Bizarrely it kind of made sense.

BEagle

For this particular operation, land-based aircraft have proved sufficient. Yes, if there'd been a UK carrier with an air group of FA2s and a few GR9s and if it had happened to be in the right place at the right time, it might have helped.....

So the carrier / Harrier argument is irrelevant for this particular scenario.

But next time, there might not be a suitable land base close enough. Would that be sufficient reason to resurrect the Harrier force? I would say no - unless that force were to include the FA2. Otherwise it would probably be an expensive luxury which simply couldn't be justified.

Pity though.

Not_a_boffin

The Harrier/CVS argument is pretty much irrelevant for this scenario. However, if it comes to mounting continuous CAP for any sustained period, I suspect the carrier element of it (CdG or Big E) may be far more important.

Final 3 Greens

FYI Malta is a neutral country, humanitarian activities supported very strongly (as demonstrated recently), but not military action.

This is an insulting statement and the equivalent of saying many Brits are pally with Libya, because of the actions of HMG and the oil companies. Of course, the UK never saw Libya as a fruitful trading partner, did it?

I don't recall Malta releasing a convicted terrorist and I do remember Malta impounding 2 Mirages, even though many Maltese citizens were still awaiting evacuation and could have been held as hostages.

From a Brit living in Malta.

Octane

Apparently combat aircraft from about a dozen different countries are enroute to Libya. Will they have the comms gear to talk to each other? And if the rebels and the Colonels mob are using the same aircraft does that mean engagements BVR are out of the question? How do you tell a good MIG from a bad one, or is it as simple as telling the rebels to park their aircraft....

Just curious, thanks.

Octane

draken55

I have been astonished at the number of posts on this and other threads that have assumed HNS would be available at Malta. Others posts suggest that we can also simply insert Special Forces into Libya to identify targets when fighting is close to the population we are mandated to protect.

It was a diplomatic success to have Resolution 1973 passed. It was not a mandate for Regime change or to eliminate the Colonel and quite specifically ruled out troops on the ground. We need to be careful not to believe otherwise. We must carry the wider world community on this issue. The mixed messages from the Arab League and dissaproval from both India and Russia on the scale of the initial strikes should be worrying our leaders

dead_pan

Where in the UN's charter does it mention it has the right to assasinate a head of state? This feels more and more like an attack on his regime, not an enhanced no-fly zone aimed at stabilising the situation in the country.

Wrathmonk

Look forward to them getting more engaged then .... particularly the Arab League. If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.

Or perhaps not.

All talk and no action.

Edited to add, having just seen dead pans post : If media reporting is to be believed the attacks are dismantling the very system being used against the civilians/rebels i.e the army and air force. Command and control is part of that system. Have they targetted other non-military government buildings as yet (which may indicate a more 'regime removal' scenario)?

dead_pan

We targeted a "suspected command centre" (or words to that effect) last night. The fact it was in Gaddafi's palace complex was purely coincidental. Seriously though, we're going to have to do a lot better than this if we are to keep our wavering allies on side.

Intriguing that the American B2 crews fired but the Tornado boys did not - did the order come too late, or a different take on what they were seeing? I assume the civilians were the same ones I spotted outside the palace on the BBC news last night...

draken55

If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.

Given the make up of most Arab States you would hardly expect a collective response other than to prefer action that protected the civilian population from harm.

Perhaps it's us in the liberal and Democratic West who have the problem. We could not stand aside watching on TV as Colonel Gadaffi used his Armed Forces to "put down a rebellion" or "stop the will of his people being expressed".

Is Libya just another Arab State where the citizens want change? Unlike Tunisia and Egypt where the push for this came from the young unemployed and a growing number of well educated but still unemployed people, where has it emerged from in Libya? It is richer country thanks to oil and judging from the need for migrant workers, poverty and lack of economic opportunity was not such an issue.

I hope the use of Air Power alone to intervene under a UN Mandate has a positive impact but we have no idea if it will. If Gadaffi is toppled by his people we then have no idea what form of Government we might then get in Libya. But then is that our business anyway

Tester_76

Or different targets?

Eclectic

The Bab al-Aziza complex ( 32°52′30″N 13°10′30″E) is 6 square km in size and contains many buildings including one of Gaddafi's palaces, an army barracks and the now destroyed command centre.

On Saturday night the B2s used their stealth to put a large payload of dumb bombs onto a Libyan military airfield whilst the RAF used Storm Shadow cruise missiles for precision attacks which were probably, judging by the priorities on Saturday night, air defence resources.

On Sunday night the emphasis seemed to switch to command and control targets for the precision attacks. Presumably Global Hawk or some other reconnaissance means spotted the civilians so the Tornados aborted. For the B2s there are still airfields for their dumb bomb sorties.

Eclectic

There is this strange story going round that one of Gaddafi's sons may be killed:

On March 20, 2011, it was reported by Al Manara Media that Khamis al-Gaddafi had died from his injuries sustained when Muhammad Mokhtar Osman allegedly crashed his plane into Bab al-Azizia. However, this had not been confirmed by any other independent media. The crashing of the plane itself had also not been previously reported or confirmed by any other independent media except Al Manara.

Reinhardt

Strange how all UK & US Missile strikes on airfields are reported as "UK & US" whereas French Rafale and Mirage fighters attacks blowing up tanks miles around Benghazi while helping to control the Libyan airspace, are reported as "Allied / coalition aircraft" but not "French"....
But quite soon - tomorrow - there will be a real aircraft carrier in the Gulf of Syrte, and then many will understand the real value of those ships ... when they no longer have them (especially with the italians talking today about removing their airfields from the operations....)

MPN11

A long time ago, Dom Mintoff was very pally with Gadaffi and Libya [after he kicked the British out in 78[?]. That has long since migrated to a curious combination of 'independence' and 'the Chinese are our good friends'.

Things move on, although when I visited Malta in 09 I'm sure I recognised some of the pot-holes from my last visit in around 83