LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY
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VC10's was deployed to Seeb in 2002 to support the US Navy flying Ops in Afghanistan
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Wrath....ironic indeed, but then there are so many ironioes out there right now. And don't forget there were a lot more GR sqns then, not the 7 or 5 or less we can plan on today.
For those considering a UK carrier with resurrected GR9's on board, could you explain exactly how a Harrier can patrol a NFZ with no radar and only short-range IR missiles? Or how the carrier can defend itself against the threat of all those Libyan strike assets?
IF (and it's a big IF) we could mount a shared NFZ, the only aircraft we could use would be F3 or Tiffie, neither of which I think are in a position to do such. And as for necessary AR assets??? Happy to be shown to be wrong though.
For those considering a UK carrier with resurrected GR9's on board, could you explain exactly how a Harrier can patrol a NFZ with no radar and only short-range IR missiles? Or how the carrier can defend itself against the threat of all those Libyan strike assets?
IF (and it's a big IF) we could mount a shared NFZ, the only aircraft we could use would be F3 or Tiffie, neither of which I think are in a position to do such. And as for necessary AR assets??? Happy to be shown to be wrong though.
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...and don't forget that that deployment happened in Nov 2001, and that a lot of the trade was also RAF E3D and Nimrod (at least thats what my logbook says
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Green Flash - Does that mean our benighted Government has finally got around to sending in a military aircraft to evacuate British nationals?
Wonders will never cease.
Given that France sent in their miltary transports some time ago, and the Dutch did the same, taking some of our folk out along with theirs, it was getting embarrassing listening to William Hague twitterring on about civilian charter machines breaking down or refusing to go.
I was beginning to wonder just how short of military capacity they'd managed to leave us.
Wonders will never cease.
Given that France sent in their miltary transports some time ago, and the Dutch did the same, taking some of our folk out along with theirs, it was getting embarrassing listening to William Hague twitterring on about civilian charter machines breaking down or refusing to go.
I was beginning to wonder just how short of military capacity they'd managed to leave us.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Torygraph today has a very useful map showing the split in the country. There is also a short letter explaining the historic nature of the country.
As the larger part of the country is in 'rebel' hands and Benghazi is their centre, it would appear that any NFZ would be required to stop pro-Government forces attacking the rebels. It could be seen as too political.
As the larger part of the country is in 'rebel' hands and Benghazi is their centre, it would appear that any NFZ would be required to stop pro-Government forces attacking the rebels. It could be seen as too political.
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and the delightfully helpful admin sgt who was in situ for Saif sarea - thread drift.............. a child was conceived amongst the 40 + bed BFOT was it not?
I believe so, although it might take Jeremy Kyle to prove it!Not forgetting the 'Cup Tree' and Gp Capt Mover's "What's all this noise in the night, i've got an Exercise to organise you know!" outburst
Back on thread though, before everyone on here goes off on one about loss af capability, let's not forget that we currently have a major undertaking already longer than the 2 World Wars put together still ongoing!
I believe we do have the assets, but they're spread too thinly on HERRICK at the moment. The decision is do we support 1 medium(and some) scale Op and still keep reserves for small-scale interludes like today?
Were the priorities so, assets would be allocated. So, do we prioritise militarily or execute knee-jerks to every Sky News phone-in headline?
Also, don't we have other aircraft capable of moving a fair few personnel a fair bit quicker than Albert? Saving those boys for doing what they do best.
Caspian 237 :
"Given adequate basing facilites and capacity surely Typhoons flying from loacal airbases would be more appropriate to enforcing a NFZ than harriers flying from an aircraft carrier?"
I think that is the point, sadly. Your 'givens' are dubious at best, which is why carriers were always handy to have. Rely on no-one, can sit just out of sight over the horizon, location variable & uncertain. However, without SHAR, which was still a highly capable wee fighter in the right circumstances, the carrier idea is a non-starter.
(RAF GA Harriers, although superb at their GA role, are (were) useless for this purpose. As with the RAF/FAA claims and controversy before the Second World War, the RAF's claims to be able to provide shipborne capability were designed solely to fool politicians.
That those same politicians now appear to be axing everything in sight to pay off bankers debts is perhaps unsurprising. They don't do logic, they do short term convenience. And unfortunately a quick look at this crisis shows how little we can do militarily now. Eheu. I'll bet they draw the wrong conclusions too.)
"Given adequate basing facilites and capacity surely Typhoons flying from loacal airbases would be more appropriate to enforcing a NFZ than harriers flying from an aircraft carrier?"
I think that is the point, sadly. Your 'givens' are dubious at best, which is why carriers were always handy to have. Rely on no-one, can sit just out of sight over the horizon, location variable & uncertain. However, without SHAR, which was still a highly capable wee fighter in the right circumstances, the carrier idea is a non-starter.
(RAF GA Harriers, although superb at their GA role, are (were) useless for this purpose. As with the RAF/FAA claims and controversy before the Second World War, the RAF's claims to be able to provide shipborne capability were designed solely to fool politicians.
That those same politicians now appear to be axing everything in sight to pay off bankers debts is perhaps unsurprising. They don't do logic, they do short term convenience. And unfortunately a quick look at this crisis shows how little we can do militarily now. Eheu. I'll bet they draw the wrong conclusions too.)
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AT* without steps might be as much use as a chocolate teapot
7 of them, in fact (if that's not specific enough
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I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Uncle, ah yes, I forgot them. May be they didn't mind risking a rusty old K model? 
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US Carriers
My recollection of the Iraq Southern NFZ between GW1 and GW2 was that the US carriers had difficulty in mounting 24 hours ops and were very reliant on land based AAR, AWACs and the whole C3 piece. Even then the Navy aircraft seemed very limited on range and I don't recall them penetrating much further than Tallil before they needed to dart back to the ship. I can' swear to this, but that's how the ATO looked to me. So it would seem that even if carrier based aircraft were used, the ship becomes, essentially, just another airfield that needs to be plugged into the bigger air plan most of which is land based. Bottom line was that when the carrier couldn't fly no one really noticed or cared but they were useful to have around to allow for a few down days and a visit to the local swimming pool. Not sure how it would work with UAVs but I assume that the useful long range UAVs are all land based.
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buscuit74
I was beginning to wonder just how short of military capacity they'd managed to leave us.
Whilst Cameron and his defense entourage are busy selling arms to Egypt maybe they'd like to make a pass at the MoD?
ECAM Actions.
67 - you are absolutely correct. I helped write one of the 'plans' and naval aviation was never able to go far or cover for very long when compared to land-based assets.
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Charter aircraft delay.......
If I was a journo (which I am not, and never have been!) I would ask the FO whether the "tech" delay at LGW was down to insurance problems on the airframe.
Being cynical in my old age, I can easily imagine the charter airline having difficulties, not so much about getting crew as it is possible to encourage volunteers to fly the plane, but getting insurance cover for the hull might be difficult in a conflict zone.
Mind you, these wouldn't have arisen in the days when the RAF had real options to offer HMG, with not just a choice of aircaft but a range of airfields from which to dispatch them!
MB
Being cynical in my old age, I can easily imagine the charter airline having difficulties, not so much about getting crew as it is possible to encourage volunteers to fly the plane, but getting insurance cover for the hull might be difficult in a conflict zone.
Mind you, these wouldn't have arisen in the days when the RAF had real options to offer HMG, with not just a choice of aircaft but a range of airfields from which to dispatch them!
MB
A friend of mine just got back on one of the charter flights. Here's what he said:
On the Ground In Tripoli.
The situation these is extremely violent and there is chaos everywhere. Lawless and Anarchy has set in. There are groups driving around the area where I was with AK 47's randomly shooting into the air and the hoarding around our site was peppered with gunshot holes. Fortunately noone was injured in the site and we had some 1400 personnel housed there, me included.
Getting to the Airport on three occassions was a nightmare and there are roadblocks everywhere manned by Malitia in some areas, army in other areas and who knows who in other areas. Smile and pay the bribes and hopefully you get on your way.
The airport when I eventually got there yesterday was like a cattle market. There was, I estimate some 15,000 people crowded outside the terminal, trying to get in with no hope of getting on a flight. I stood there wondering how I was going to get in. I was travelling light as there was no way I was getting through with my suitcase etc so all I had was my computer bag and a small backpack with my valuables. After about an hour I spotted two europeans with hi-vis jackets on and it was the FCO coming to the rescue. they took me to the marshalling area for the British and logged me in and assured me that the flight was on its way from UK to collect us. Then it started to rain. No shelter and it was cold. There was approx 120 Brits waiting under on Gazebbo for shelter. Not the fault of the FCO I might add as the space was limited and the Authorities would not allow anything else.
We were concerned about how we would get into the Terminal when we were eventually advised it was time to move. there were approx 2500 Egyptians who had dominated the position that was the only entrance into the terminal and they had no hope of getting in as there were no Egyptian flights out. They had been there for 4 days trying to get in and were obstructing everyone else who tried to get in. The Libyan police batton charged them on a few occassions and cleared the way but they soon reformed until later in the day the Army resorted to Tear Gassing them and they still returned but this time in an orderly queue and still it was like a gauntlet to get into the Terminal.
The FCO staff did a marvelous job on the ground and especially a Libyan by the name of Mansood, he was an absolute star, who paved the way for us via bribes, baton weilding henchmen, and a lot of pushing and shoving, we got in to the terminal only to find that it was nearly as bad inside. The area outside the terminal is like a cess pit. Literally human excreta and urine everywhere.
Every step of the way was a bribe and only US dollars were acceptable currency. Heaven and the British Government alone knows the cost to get us through.
Once inside the terminal the FCO arranged the boarding passes and 20 of us were invited to exit via an Irish Airforce aircraft which was scheduled to leave shortly. I volunteered to get onto this one and off we went through immigation, (more bribes) xray (bribes) gate entry (bribes) and then onto a bus to get to the aircraft (again bribes). We drove around the stands looking for the aircraft for 30 minutes and then returned to the terminal only to be advised that the aircraft had already left empty as they needed to fill the take off slot.
We were then led back to the immigration area to wait for the next flight, the BP charter.
My quest started at 10am and it was now 1 am the this morning and still I was not on a flight. We could see the charter flight but they would not let us board as we were waiting for another 150 passengers to get through all the bull **** which we had already done.
2 hours later another 50 passenger arrived and they let us board but only after 2500 dollars to refuel the flight and 2500 dollars landing fees all payable in cash to some nameless official.
More body scans, xrays bribes and we got onto the plane. We waited for another hour for more passengers and the crew were running out of hours, they were already into their emergency hour. The captain eventually called it and then we had to bribe another bod to push back for take off. The tower then questioned the flight plan and another short delay occurred. We were beginning to think that we would be held there and the crew hours would run out and we would be there for another 6-8 hours at least.
Thankfully the Captain got clearance to leave and off we went with a huge cheer as the aircraft eventually left the runway and turned north for home.
I cannot thank the FCO and Home office staff on the ground for the hard work they all put into getting as out of Libya. They worked tirelessly and professionally at all times and were a credit to the British Government.
These has been a lot of criticism levelled at the government over the handling of this affair and if only people realised the difficulty of dealing with the Libyans you they would realise how onerous a task this was for them. The Libyan officials did everything they could to mess us around and made no attempt at any time to assist in getting anyone out of their country in these difficult times. I take back what I said about the "Ice Cream Salesman" on Tuesday. His team came through and thanks to them I am home, safe and warm in my own home and with my friends and family.
On the Ground In Tripoli.
The situation these is extremely violent and there is chaos everywhere. Lawless and Anarchy has set in. There are groups driving around the area where I was with AK 47's randomly shooting into the air and the hoarding around our site was peppered with gunshot holes. Fortunately noone was injured in the site and we had some 1400 personnel housed there, me included.
Getting to the Airport on three occassions was a nightmare and there are roadblocks everywhere manned by Malitia in some areas, army in other areas and who knows who in other areas. Smile and pay the bribes and hopefully you get on your way.
The airport when I eventually got there yesterday was like a cattle market. There was, I estimate some 15,000 people crowded outside the terminal, trying to get in with no hope of getting on a flight. I stood there wondering how I was going to get in. I was travelling light as there was no way I was getting through with my suitcase etc so all I had was my computer bag and a small backpack with my valuables. After about an hour I spotted two europeans with hi-vis jackets on and it was the FCO coming to the rescue. they took me to the marshalling area for the British and logged me in and assured me that the flight was on its way from UK to collect us. Then it started to rain. No shelter and it was cold. There was approx 120 Brits waiting under on Gazebbo for shelter. Not the fault of the FCO I might add as the space was limited and the Authorities would not allow anything else.
We were concerned about how we would get into the Terminal when we were eventually advised it was time to move. there were approx 2500 Egyptians who had dominated the position that was the only entrance into the terminal and they had no hope of getting in as there were no Egyptian flights out. They had been there for 4 days trying to get in and were obstructing everyone else who tried to get in. The Libyan police batton charged them on a few occassions and cleared the way but they soon reformed until later in the day the Army resorted to Tear Gassing them and they still returned but this time in an orderly queue and still it was like a gauntlet to get into the Terminal.
The FCO staff did a marvelous job on the ground and especially a Libyan by the name of Mansood, he was an absolute star, who paved the way for us via bribes, baton weilding henchmen, and a lot of pushing and shoving, we got in to the terminal only to find that it was nearly as bad inside. The area outside the terminal is like a cess pit. Literally human excreta and urine everywhere.
Every step of the way was a bribe and only US dollars were acceptable currency. Heaven and the British Government alone knows the cost to get us through.
Once inside the terminal the FCO arranged the boarding passes and 20 of us were invited to exit via an Irish Airforce aircraft which was scheduled to leave shortly. I volunteered to get onto this one and off we went through immigation, (more bribes) xray (bribes) gate entry (bribes) and then onto a bus to get to the aircraft (again bribes). We drove around the stands looking for the aircraft for 30 minutes and then returned to the terminal only to be advised that the aircraft had already left empty as they needed to fill the take off slot.
We were then led back to the immigration area to wait for the next flight, the BP charter.
My quest started at 10am and it was now 1 am the this morning and still I was not on a flight. We could see the charter flight but they would not let us board as we were waiting for another 150 passengers to get through all the bull **** which we had already done.
2 hours later another 50 passenger arrived and they let us board but only after 2500 dollars to refuel the flight and 2500 dollars landing fees all payable in cash to some nameless official.
More body scans, xrays bribes and we got onto the plane. We waited for another hour for more passengers and the crew were running out of hours, they were already into their emergency hour. The captain eventually called it and then we had to bribe another bod to push back for take off. The tower then questioned the flight plan and another short delay occurred. We were beginning to think that we would be held there and the crew hours would run out and we would be there for another 6-8 hours at least.
Thankfully the Captain got clearance to leave and off we went with a huge cheer as the aircraft eventually left the runway and turned north for home.
I cannot thank the FCO and Home office staff on the ground for the hard work they all put into getting as out of Libya. They worked tirelessly and professionally at all times and were a credit to the British Government.
These has been a lot of criticism levelled at the government over the handling of this affair and if only people realised the difficulty of dealing with the Libyans you they would realise how onerous a task this was for them. The Libyan officials did everything they could to mess us around and made no attempt at any time to assist in getting anyone out of their country in these difficult times. I take back what I said about the "Ice Cream Salesman" on Tuesday. His team came through and thanks to them I am home, safe and warm in my own home and with my friends and family.
when's Illistrious due out of refit and could a harrier sqn or two be worked up in time?