Quarter of RAF trainee pilots to be sacked
So, Egypt, Iran, Tunisia and now Libya are now rather more than somewhat on the buffet.....
But hey, let's get rid of our air force and keep giving overseas aid to richer countries....
But hey, let's get rid of our air force and keep giving overseas aid to richer countries....
Join Date: May 2003
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Approximate Strength of the Indian Armed Forces according to wiki:
(This is not an Indian bashing thread)
Army: 1,325,000 Regular Personnel
In excess of 5000 MBT
Navy: 56,000 Regular personnel
250 aircraft
1 CVS
8 Destroyers
13 Frigates
15 Submarines
Approx 150 other vessels
Air Force: 170,000 Personnel
270 SU30MKI
60+ Mig 29
50 M2000
200 Mig 21
140 Jaguar
100+Mig 27
An independant nuclear deterrent and space programme.
Do we really need to be financing them? Maybe they could bung us a few quid?
(This is not an Indian bashing thread)
Army: 1,325,000 Regular Personnel
In excess of 5000 MBT
Navy: 56,000 Regular personnel
250 aircraft
1 CVS
8 Destroyers
13 Frigates
15 Submarines
Approx 150 other vessels
Air Force: 170,000 Personnel
270 SU30MKI
60+ Mig 29
50 M2000
200 Mig 21
140 Jaguar
100+Mig 27
An independant nuclear deterrent and space programme.
Do we really need to be financing them? Maybe they could bung us a few quid?
(in exchange for a peppercorn rent and an annual "lunch")
A whopping £10 per annum for the last 22 years in our case
But it's fun to watch Bloggs doing his thing and the annual "landowners' day" is delightful. In recent years they've arranged 30min in a Squirrel or Griffin as well, which everyone thoroughly enjoys. So it's not all one way by any means.
A whopping £10 per annum for the last 22 years in our case
But it's fun to watch Bloggs doing his thing and the annual "landowners' day" is delightful. In recent years they've arranged 30min in a Squirrel or Griffin as well, which everyone thoroughly enjoys. So it's not all one way by any means.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What if the IRA turned "hostile" again?
Forget, a 1982 Falkland Islands repeat.
I wonder just what contingency plans exist should the PIRA go "active"? Just remind me of how many troops and SH assets were effectively based in the province, and for how long?
Q. Where would 20,000 boots on the ground, 20+ RW cabs (plus reserves of both on the mainland) to sustain ops for a long time come from?
A. Thin air? (No pun intended).
Our polititians might get away with the UN stepping in to sort out a mess 8,000 miles away but I don't think the same would be true in NI.
MB
I wonder just what contingency plans exist should the PIRA go "active"? Just remind me of how many troops and SH assets were effectively based in the province, and for how long?
Q. Where would 20,000 boots on the ground, 20+ RW cabs (plus reserves of both on the mainland) to sustain ops for a long time come from?
A. Thin air? (No pun intended).
Our polititians might get away with the UN stepping in to sort out a mess 8,000 miles away but I don't think the same would be true in NI.
MB
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: planet earth
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read the whole of this thread, but was yesterday just about how many will go ?
If I have understood correctly, the individuals who have been selected are yet to be informed and will not be so for another 4-5 weeks ?
Is this so ?
Does this mean that every student pilot is working under the stress of not knowing whether they will make it or not ?
Is it just me, but this looks like one hell of a flight safety risk in addition to the utter HR disaster it already is.
If I have understood correctly, the individuals who have been selected are yet to be informed and will not be so for another 4-5 weeks ?
Is this so ?
Does this mean that every student pilot is working under the stress of not knowing whether they will make it or not ?
Is it just me, but this looks like one hell of a flight safety risk in addition to the utter HR disaster it already is.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not a lot to say that hasn't already been said. To those affected, my sincerest condolences to you all. I can't begin to understand how you must feel other than you be devastated.
c130jbloke
What a bloody good point you make about flight safety. I hope that those responsible are taking note.
Just to add another dimension, can anyone seriously see a future any longer for the UAS's ?? I have never been on one, or had anything to do with them but i understand they are a great place to be. However, there must be some evil civil serpant sitting somewhere in Whitehall sharpening his knives, I'm certain.
Just an appalling situation all round.
To all those baby pilots - hang in there boys and girls, we all feel for you.
Winco
c130jbloke
What a bloody good point you make about flight safety. I hope that those responsible are taking note.
Just to add another dimension, can anyone seriously see a future any longer for the UAS's ?? I have never been on one, or had anything to do with them but i understand they are a great place to be. However, there must be some evil civil serpant sitting somewhere in Whitehall sharpening his knives, I'm certain.
Just an appalling situation all round.
To all those baby pilots - hang in there boys and girls, we all feel for you.
Winco
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Around and About
Age: 39
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C130J
Yes.
Names of those to be withdrawn from training for those in 'pool 4' that is those who have already started on a specific stream will be announced next friday.
As to worry and flight safety, it develops Capacity, apparently...
Yes.
Names of those to be withdrawn from training for those in 'pool 4' that is those who have already started on a specific stream will be announced next friday.
As to worry and flight safety, it develops Capacity, apparently...
Guest
Posts: n/a
If you had to cut several hundred pilots from across the entire RAF, how would you do it?
Offer an attractive pay-off and I'm sure they would not have to resort compulsary redundancies. Aur contraire; with an 18-month redundancy package as per the last round, the problem would be how to select from the sheer volume of numbers electing to go.
That we we have young and enthusiastic ab initios, a flow of promotion and a happy group of older bold guys and gals jumping for joy as they leave the disgusting employer that is the military.
Simples.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Angleterre
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pay me the pension that I have thus far taken for granted and add a modest bung* to keep me happy and I will happily go. To sack me and then 'award me' the reduced pension equal to me having PVR'd is more than a little unfair IMHO.
*A modest bung = the equivalent of a years take home pay. This is an entirely RAF Centric thread; are the Army and Navy not subject to the same assault?
Old and Bold and apparently in need of the chop.
*A modest bung = the equivalent of a years take home pay. This is an entirely RAF Centric thread; are the Army and Navy not subject to the same assault?
Old and Bold and apparently in need of the chop.
To keep the though put going, it makes more sense to make every Navigator (or whatever they call them now) on SH redundant and replace them with a pilot.
Turkey
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AngryDave said:
I may be absolutely wrong about this, but the last I heard recruitment for pilots was planned to reopen in financial year 2012/13. If true, and AD's out-of-service date is true, that puts us in a situation where pilots who have been made redundant are still on the payroll in 2012 while new recruits are already coming in to replace them.
Now, I may be wrong about this as well, but I'm pretty sure one of the main factors when you make someone redundant is that the job itself is disappearing - you can't just make someone redundant and then hire someone else to do the same job.
If we're hanging on to trainee pilots for another 18 months before we boot them out, then taking in new trainee pilots in 14 months (ish), I can't see how redundancy is legal.
Lots of ifs, buts and maybes in that one, but that's the first thing I'd be clarifying in a discreet call to an employment lawyer ...
Out of service date will be Sep 2012, so another 18 months in a blue suit although there is no plan what to do with those affected for those 18 months. Just enough time to wait and see people complete the course you've been choped off. If you want out earlier, VW is an option but there is no incentive to do that.
Now, I may be wrong about this as well, but I'm pretty sure one of the main factors when you make someone redundant is that the job itself is disappearing - you can't just make someone redundant and then hire someone else to do the same job.
If we're hanging on to trainee pilots for another 18 months before we boot them out, then taking in new trainee pilots in 14 months (ish), I can't see how redundancy is legal.
Lots of ifs, buts and maybes in that one, but that's the first thing I'd be clarifying in a discreet call to an employment lawyer ...
Gentleman Aviator
Lots of good words about redundancy laws - I've heard similar from MoD Civil Servants - who, remember, are losing 25% of their number.
But, and it's a big but, government doing the redundancies ..... government makes the laws. Last week (with prisoners' voting rights) Parliament (ie government) for first time puts up tentative two fingers to ECHR ....
...go figure
But, and it's a big but, government doing the redundancies ..... government makes the laws. Last week (with prisoners' voting rights) Parliament (ie government) for first time puts up tentative two fingers to ECHR ....
...go figure
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
c130jbloke said:
To answer this one point - although I dont know about the Phase 3 trainees, I've been told that everyone on EFT who has a solo sortie to complete will now be ghosted with a QFI, until everyone is informed whether they're staying or not.
Does this mean that every student pilot is working under the stress of not knowing whether they will make it or not ?
Is it just me, but this looks like one hell of a flight safety risk in addition to the utter HR disaster it already is.
Is it just me, but this looks like one hell of a flight safety risk in addition to the utter HR disaster it already is.
To answer this one point - although I dont know about the Phase 3 trainees, I've been told that everyone on EFT who has a solo sortie to complete will now be ghosted with a QFI, until everyone is informed whether they're staying or not.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Several miles SSW of Watford Gap
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Employment Law on redundancy and the Armed Forces
Part XI of the Employment Right Act 1996 details the legal position of redundancy.
The Act also details many other rights relating to employment. However, our cunning legislature decided when drafting the act that not all of these rights should apply to the Armed Forces (or other groups). The elements of the act that apply to the Armed Forces are detailed at Section 192 para (2) - this does not apply 'Part XI - Redundancy payments etc.' to the Armed Forces. (Similarly they don't apply to others in 'Crown employment' (Section 191)).
The Act also details many other rights relating to employment. However, our cunning legislature decided when drafting the act that not all of these rights should apply to the Armed Forces (or other groups). The elements of the act that apply to the Armed Forces are detailed at Section 192 para (2) - this does not apply 'Part XI - Redundancy payments etc.' to the Armed Forces. (Similarly they don't apply to others in 'Crown employment' (Section 191)).
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Annes
Age: 68
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two points,
1) Anyone facing redundancy should certainly look at the legal side of this - given so many are involved then commonsense suggests they get together and hire a small team of lawyers between them. It needn't be expensive, per capita, to discover whether or not you can vastly improve the package as you leave. (The RAF will dispose of you, no lawyer is going to make them keep you on, but there's probably a sizeable difference between the resettlement package, redundancy payout etc that the RAF want to hand out and the one that a savvy lawyer will manage to extract).
2) It's down to aircraft numbers, ultimately - argue all you like, but with an RAF that's got less aircraft than Airfix had last time they went into recievership there's no way we need the pilot numbers - or the Air ranks above them. No point in angst on pilot, WSO/Op, groundcrew numbers if the aircraft aren't there. The complaint should actually be about the way we have been cut to below effective strength, while it takes ever longer to resurrect capability. (Cameron probably imagines it's like WW2 where you could process a guy from civvy street to a Spitfire cockpit in months, unlike the years it actually takes).
My condolences to those who made it to flying training, as somebody (wisely) filtered out by OASC to be mere NCO aircrew once over I know how hard a blow it must be to succeed only to have the rug snatched out from under your feet.
To those posting with a groundcrew hat on - aircrew are selected on the basis of their egos, in part, the steady types are guided towards more mundane and useful <g> trades.... you can't select on a model based on Tom Cruise then expect an Alan Titchmarsh response to something like this.
Dave
1) Anyone facing redundancy should certainly look at the legal side of this - given so many are involved then commonsense suggests they get together and hire a small team of lawyers between them. It needn't be expensive, per capita, to discover whether or not you can vastly improve the package as you leave. (The RAF will dispose of you, no lawyer is going to make them keep you on, but there's probably a sizeable difference between the resettlement package, redundancy payout etc that the RAF want to hand out and the one that a savvy lawyer will manage to extract).
2) It's down to aircraft numbers, ultimately - argue all you like, but with an RAF that's got less aircraft than Airfix had last time they went into recievership there's no way we need the pilot numbers - or the Air ranks above them. No point in angst on pilot, WSO/Op, groundcrew numbers if the aircraft aren't there. The complaint should actually be about the way we have been cut to below effective strength, while it takes ever longer to resurrect capability. (Cameron probably imagines it's like WW2 where you could process a guy from civvy street to a Spitfire cockpit in months, unlike the years it actually takes).
My condolences to those who made it to flying training, as somebody (wisely) filtered out by OASC to be mere NCO aircrew once over I know how hard a blow it must be to succeed only to have the rug snatched out from under your feet.
To those posting with a groundcrew hat on - aircrew are selected on the basis of their egos, in part, the steady types are guided towards more mundane and useful <g> trades.... you can't select on a model based on Tom Cruise then expect an Alan Titchmarsh response to something like this.
Dave
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For what it's worth our Pilot Recruitment Manager at British Airways has today said they are actively looking at recruiting Forces pilots. Roadshows have already been held at some bases and more are planned.
Once the current type rated requirement has been lifted expect to see it opened up to all. Currently BA need 140 new pilots this financial year.
Once the current type rated requirement has been lifted expect to see it opened up to all. Currently BA need 140 new pilots this financial year.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France 46
Age: 77
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
davejb
It is not the RAF that is behind this situation - it is HMG.
Equally the RAF does not have any money of its own - its budget is determined by HMG.
In the Spring of 1939 Conscription was introduced for single Males aged 20-22 years. Naturally my Father, who was 25 (and married with a pregnant wife), was one of the first to be conscripted. No compensation was paid.
HMG will determine levels of compensation and will, if necessary, change the Law to suit its purposes.
It is not the RAF that is behind this situation - it is HMG.
Equally the RAF does not have any money of its own - its budget is determined by HMG.
In the Spring of 1939 Conscription was introduced for single Males aged 20-22 years. Naturally my Father, who was 25 (and married with a pregnant wife), was one of the first to be conscripted. No compensation was paid.
HMG will determine levels of compensation and will, if necessary, change the Law to suit its purposes.
Last edited by cazatou; 17th Feb 2011 at 11:25.