Navigators in the 21st Century
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FSTA MSO position.
The FSTA MSO seat WILL be filled by an NCA WSOp.
This is a fact that ACOS manning and the respective SO2 desk officers are aware of.
It does not matter what the old crustys on this forum think of putting an ALM/ENG/AEOp in the MSO seat. In my experience they are just as capable if not more so that many Navs out there.
This is a fact that ACOS manning and the respective SO2 desk officers are aware of.
It does not matter what the old crustys on this forum think of putting an ALM/ENG/AEOp in the MSO seat. In my experience they are just as capable if not more so that many Navs out there.
Last edited by Cannonfodder; 10th Dec 2010 at 16:05.
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CF
That isn't exactly what was said last month around the time of the WSOp Ldrs Conference.
I think the exact quote was "AT LEAST the first 7 slots on A330 are being filled by WSO's..."
CS
That isn't exactly what was said last month around the time of the WSOp Ldrs Conference.
I think the exact quote was "AT LEAST the first 7 slots on A330 are being filled by WSO's..."
CS
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Guys, Last month we had a plan.... this month we have a new plan ...whatever.
By the time the aircraft gets cancelled they will have made it a job for an SAC acting (unpaid) SGT, with Flying Pay and there will have been loads of applicants who will then need to have jobs found for them.
Wherever they end up, they can be sure to have an ex-nav as their boss.
Cannonfodder, are you referring to Lord Beagle as an Old Crusty?
By the time the aircraft gets cancelled they will have made it a job for an SAC acting (unpaid) SGT, with Flying Pay and there will have been loads of applicants who will then need to have jobs found for them.
Wherever they end up, they can be sure to have an ex-nav as their boss.
Cannonfodder, are you referring to Lord Beagle as an Old Crusty?
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But don't forget you can train anyone to do any job (including flying an aircraft) if you give enough hours. In my time the issue wasn't whether you could get someone through the syllabus, it was how much flex the system allowed for remedial. Sad but true. You can train a monkey.............. Some monkeys then require a tad more supervision. This relates to pilots, navs, AEOs or whoever.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SFFP, I would agree that a T* is not a modern 2-man cockpit but I was there on a first mission sortie as a mission specialist. OK?
To try to make sense of some earlier information:
- Ab initio nav training ends 2011 (source: PN's source)
- GR4 OSD 2018 (source: an earlier poster; seems reasonable)
- GR4 OCU stands down 2016 (source: KeyPilot assumption - platform OSD minus 2 years)
=> where does the supply of new navs to the GR4 OCU come from during 2011-2016? Thoughts?
- Ab initio nav training ends 2011 (source: PN's source)
- GR4 OSD 2018 (source: an earlier poster; seems reasonable)
- GR4 OCU stands down 2016 (source: KeyPilot assumption - platform OSD minus 2 years)
=> where does the supply of new navs to the GR4 OCU come from during 2011-2016? Thoughts?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
KP, what has happened before with V-force nav rads when their bombing school closed they were posted directly to the OCU. On the Javelin in the 50s they had a trade of Radar Operator with, I believe, direct entry to the cockpit.
It might be feasible to post someone directly to the GR4 out of Cranwell. However there will be sufficient fast-jet navs in the system for them to be employed or transferred to the GR4. It might be a racing certainty that there willbe few compulsory redundancies amongst fast-jet navs. There will also be the 'resting' instructors on 55.
It might be feasible to post someone directly to the GR4 out of Cranwell. However there will be sufficient fast-jet navs in the system for them to be employed or transferred to the GR4. It might be a racing certainty that there willbe few compulsory redundancies amongst fast-jet navs. There will also be the 'resting' instructors on 55.
Reluctant as I am to correct such a highly experienced (and venerable 
) navigator as PN, I think the correct term for the guys that sat in the back of Javelins was Radar Observer. These chaps wore the 'RO' brevet, which had first been introduced during WW2, and which is frequently misidentified as 'Radio Operator', an aircrew category which never existed under that name. The scheme was fairly short lived, and those who could pass the nav course were reclassified as navigators and switched to the 'N' brevet
) navigator as PN, I think the correct term for the guys that sat in the back of Javelins was Radar Observer. These chaps wore the 'RO' brevet, which had first been introduced during WW2, and which is frequently misidentified as 'Radio Operator', an aircrew category which never existed under that name. The scheme was fairly short lived, and those who could pass the nav course were reclassified as navigators and switched to the 'N' brevet
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These guys wore the 'RO' brevet,
They were from Waterbeach
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The scheme was fairly short lived, and those who could pass the nav course were reclassified as navigators and switched to the 'N' brevet
Also on our initial course we had a chap with an M brevet as well as a couple of S. The former was Chalky White but I think he went pilot as I never saw him again.
Jefford's book 'Observers and Navigators' pg 214 refers to 'radio observers'
However I don't think I should labour the point - the prospect of two elderly navs arm wrestling to settle it is not an appealing one
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I found the following which sorts out the Radio Operator bit; it was a secret blind for the real job of radar operator.
The Royal Air Force 1939-45 - Google Books
I am not sure whether there was a direct swap RO to N brevet as then RO could certainly not navigate to the standard then require for a general navigator. I might try and see if I can contact then RO I knew although the trail is 20 years old.
The Royal Air Force 1939-45 - Google Books
I am not sure whether there was a direct swap RO to N brevet as then RO could certainly not navigate to the standard then require for a general navigator. I might try and see if I can contact then RO I knew although the trail is 20 years old.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
From ORAC's post on another thread:
For 40 aircraft you would need 60 operational navigators with a small number in command appointments. In Just 4 years that number would appear to be reduced to 27. That number should easily be sustained by current in-service aircrew.
When I speculated no FJ Nav redundancies I suspect that was off the mark.
The Tornado fleet is currently scheduled to retire in 2021. The government recently announced a reduction in the number of Tornados required to sustain ongoing operations, known as force elements, from 40 to 18 by 2015.
When I speculated no FJ Nav redundancies I suspect that was off the mark.
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In this months Air Forces Monthly there is a report that the Dominie is being removed from service this week (apologies if this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread). So, navigator training up to and including the Dominie course is now finished leaving just those nav/WSO students who are on the Hawk T1 at 100 Sqn and the GR4 OCU. Unless they are just gapping the nav/WSO training until MFTS provides the next generation of it then it would seem that we are now relying on the already trained aircrew on the frontline to keep platforms with a nav/WSO going until their OSDs.
Sense1
Sense1
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Sense, makes sense, and it also squares the circle.
The GR4 was the more sensible option for disbandment than the GR9 as it meant the Nav Tucano, Dom, and Hawk could all go too. What they would appear to be doing is pulling the plug early and hoping the bath water doesn't run out too quickly.
The only problem with that GR4 solution would be the ME Navs. They solved that by disbanding the Nimrod so you have a large pool from which to draw 130K/E3 Navs as well.
Though it be madness there is method in it.
As I said of a 1989 Nav Conference, the question of the future of the navigator branch was questioned but never addressed. And when I advised people not so long ago not to go WSO(N) I was tld to wind my neck in, well . . .
The GR4 was the more sensible option for disbandment than the GR9 as it meant the Nav Tucano, Dom, and Hawk could all go too. What they would appear to be doing is pulling the plug early and hoping the bath water doesn't run out too quickly.
The only problem with that GR4 solution would be the ME Navs. They solved that by disbanding the Nimrod so you have a large pool from which to draw 130K/E3 Navs as well.
Though it be madness there is method in it.
As I said of a 1989 Nav Conference, the question of the future of the navigator branch was questioned but never addressed. And when I advised people not so long ago not to go WSO(N) I was tld to wind my neck in, well . . .
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Whilst this is strictly speaking going against the title of this thread, I was wondering what the effect of SDSR is on the pilot branch. Obviously the requirement for RW and ME pilots has not decreased but I would imagine that future intakes at Linton and Valley will be set to plummet.
From the 'RAF to 6 Fast Jet Sqns' thread I see that next year we are set to lose 4 fast jet squadrons. Combine that with the many Harrier mates who must be after Typhoon and GR4 slots I imagine that there won't be many students now leaving EFT who are getting streamed jets, and that some of those currently at Linton or Valley may be unceremoniously re-streamed. This is assumption and conjecture on my part - anyone out there in the know care to shed some light...??
From the 'RAF to 6 Fast Jet Sqns' thread I see that next year we are set to lose 4 fast jet squadrons. Combine that with the many Harrier mates who must be after Typhoon and GR4 slots I imagine that there won't be many students now leaving EFT who are getting streamed jets, and that some of those currently at Linton or Valley may be unceremoniously re-streamed. This is assumption and conjecture on my part - anyone out there in the know care to shed some light...??
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
KP, a long time.
I also note from the RAF website that the Hawk 128 will be in increasing use form 2008. That didn't happen either.
I also note from the RAF website that the Hawk 128 will be in increasing use form 2008. That didn't happen either.
Pontius
How could shelving the GR4 be the "more sensible option" than the GR9? Even the government got it right in the SDSR:
The GR9 fleet was/is in pretty poor shape these days and the GR4 is far more able to strike against a high-end warfighter with Storm Shadow - I doubt if Jump Jet Fanny and Her Hawker Siddley Tw@t could even lift one!
Anyhoo, back to the thread
Top rumour is that Dominie will be gone by end Jan 11 and that some basic WSO stuff will be done on King Air before going on to Tucano then Hawk (if we need to train any more).
iRaven
How could shelving the GR4 be the "more sensible option" than the GR9? Even the government got it right in the SDSR:
The current, limited carrier-strike capability will be retired. We must face up to the difficult choices put off by the last Government. Over the next five years combat air support to operations in Afghanistan must be the over-riding priority: the Harrier fleet would not be able to provide this and sustain a carrier-strike role at the same time. Even after 2015, short-range Harriers – whether operating from HMS Illustrious or HMS Queen Elizabeth – would provide only a very limited coercive capability. We judge it unlikely that this would be sufficiently useful in the latter half of the decade to be a cost-effective use of defence resources.
Anyhoo, back to the thread
Top rumour is that Dominie will be gone by end Jan 11 and that some basic WSO stuff will be done on King Air before going on to Tucano then Hawk (if we need to train any more).
iRaven