Navigators in the 21st Century
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I assume from that post you're not a Navigator or ever had the good fortune to use one? (fnar fnar).
A GPS is all well and good - but sh*t in, sh*t out, I'm afraid to say! I think I would rather have a mandraulic system and a machine for gross error checking- especially in a tactical aircraft or for fine-cutting oceanics trips.
Also - most aircraft that carry a Nav are the legacy fleets - how easy is it to get a mod through the IPT these days - cutting holes in pressure shells for cables for a GPS aerial is likely to get through well after the OOS date for the platform.
Interesting choice of words 'bin' - I'd be a little careful as there are now a lot of Navs (not just the old and bold) off a certain MPA who have an uncertain future that may involve redundancy and other bad words.
Just remember these guys are professionals as well as the Pilots.
Slightly ranty, but some of my best mates are Navs...
A GPS is all well and good - but sh*t in, sh*t out, I'm afraid to say! I think I would rather have a mandraulic system and a machine for gross error checking- especially in a tactical aircraft or for fine-cutting oceanics trips.
Also - most aircraft that carry a Nav are the legacy fleets - how easy is it to get a mod through the IPT these days - cutting holes in pressure shells for cables for a GPS aerial is likely to get through well after the OOS date for the platform.
Interesting choice of words 'bin' - I'd be a little careful as there are now a lot of Navs (not just the old and bold) off a certain MPA who have an uncertain future that may involve redundancy and other bad words.
Just remember these guys are professionals as well as the Pilots.
Slightly ranty, but some of my best mates are Navs...
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Not sure about the Garbage (better word than Sh*t seeing as how sensitive Navs are). Since Navs disappeared from civilian airliners in the 70s and engineers too for that matter the number of incidents/accidents attributable to the software is minor in comparison to the number of flights without Navs/Flt Engs.
So should we still be carrying these chaps? How much do Navs cost the RAF each year? And the Navy too?
So should we still be carrying these chaps? How much do Navs cost the RAF each year? And the Navy too?
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Mmm, of all the issues going on in defence post SDSR this one is rather, erm, irrelevant/childish/ a wind up?! .... delete as required!
But to humour such a question.... in order to get rid of the navigators - or Weapon Systems Officers as they are now called (take note of the name - it gives a clue as to how much navigating the back seaters do nowadays!) - you would have to do one of the following....
- Take the GR4 out of service
- Complete a major modification to the GR4 fleet (and I can only imagine how major!) to remove all the systems from the back seat and put em in the front or...
- Just keep things as they are for the next few years until you have a force of Typhoon and JSF as is the plan and then the issue is resolved.
I think that those who are bored enough to read your post - as I am sitting waiting on the snow to melt such that I can escape my house - will go for the latter, as is the plan at the moment anyway.
Innit
But to humour such a question.... in order to get rid of the navigators - or Weapon Systems Officers as they are now called (take note of the name - it gives a clue as to how much navigating the back seaters do nowadays!) - you would have to do one of the following....
- Take the GR4 out of service
- Complete a major modification to the GR4 fleet (and I can only imagine how major!) to remove all the systems from the back seat and put em in the front or...
- Just keep things as they are for the next few years until you have a force of Typhoon and JSF as is the plan and then the issue is resolved.
I think that those who are bored enough to read your post - as I am sitting waiting on the snow to melt such that I can escape my house - will go for the latter, as is the plan at the moment anyway.
Innit
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Mmm, of all the issues going on in defence post SDSR this one is rather, erm, irrelevant/childish/ a wind up?! .... delete as required!
But to humour such a question.... in order to get rid of the navigators - or Weapon Systems Officers as they are now called (take note of the name - it gives a clue as to how much navigating the back seaters do nowadays!) - you would have to do one of the following....
- Take the GR4 out of service
What tosh, take the Nav's out and replace them with the many pilots we have looking for places post SDSR, if Nav's can do the job then your avarage pilot will manage it with one hand tied behind his/her back.
- Complete a major modification to the GR4 fleet (and I can only imagine how major!) to remove all the systems from the back seat and put em in the front or...
No need if you put a pilot in the back, plus if they swap between front and rear we double our crewing options whilst getting them up to speed for future platforms.
- Just keep things as they are for the next few years until you have a force of Typhoon and JSF as is the plan and then the issue is resolved.
There is no place for the WSO in the future of aviation so lets start forward thinking now bin the lot of them and move pilots into the few flying posts that Nav's fill at the mo
I think that those who are bored enough to read your post - as I am sitting waiting on the snow to melt such that I can escape my house - will go for the latter, as is the plan at the moment anyway.
Innit
But to humour such a question.... in order to get rid of the navigators - or Weapon Systems Officers as they are now called (take note of the name - it gives a clue as to how much navigating the back seaters do nowadays!) - you would have to do one of the following....
- Take the GR4 out of service
What tosh, take the Nav's out and replace them with the many pilots we have looking for places post SDSR, if Nav's can do the job then your avarage pilot will manage it with one hand tied behind his/her back.
- Complete a major modification to the GR4 fleet (and I can only imagine how major!) to remove all the systems from the back seat and put em in the front or...
No need if you put a pilot in the back, plus if they swap between front and rear we double our crewing options whilst getting them up to speed for future platforms.
- Just keep things as they are for the next few years until you have a force of Typhoon and JSF as is the plan and then the issue is resolved.
There is no place for the WSO in the future of aviation so lets start forward thinking now bin the lot of them and move pilots into the few flying posts that Nav's fill at the mo
I think that those who are bored enough to read your post - as I am sitting waiting on the snow to melt such that I can escape my house - will go for the latter, as is the plan at the moment anyway.
Innit
SFFP
You're right, not a difficult concept (and with tongue firmly in cheek)....
In that case shouldn't we get rid of WSO(LM) [or whatever they call it these days] on the C130 / C17 / RW fleets and replace them with pilots so that we increase our crewing options even more.....? Granted a bit more expensive but means we have many more future CAS / AOCs in the system to choose from!
If all future manned FJ aircraft are likely to be single seat, and we're buying reduced numbers, then doesn't it make sense to get rid of the excess (Harrier) pilots now and keep the navs doing the job they were trained for otherwise when the GR4 fleet finally folds we will still have an excess of pilots with no single seat cockpits to go to.
PS - Excellent thread Epsilon! You could have tied it in with the fitness test failures and/or who 'draws' more allowances should get the push and you would have got a full house! And you forgot to mention that anyone drawing CEA should also be shown the door. All money saving ideas ....
You're right, not a difficult concept (and with tongue firmly in cheek)....
No need if you put a pilot in the back, plus if they swap between front and rear we double our crewing options whilst getting them up to speed for future platforms
There is no place for the WSO in the future of aviation so lets start forward thinking now bin the lot of them and move pilots into the few flying posts that Nav's fill at the mo
) pilots now and keep the navs doing the job they were trained for otherwise when the GR4 fleet finally folds we will still have an excess of pilots with no single seat cockpits to go to.PS - Excellent thread Epsilon! You could have tied it in with the fitness test failures and/or who 'draws' more allowances should get the push and you would have got a full house! And you forgot to mention that anyone drawing CEA should also be shown the door
. All money saving ideas ....
Navigator
The scene is some time in the old era when cockpits had round dials plus flight engineers and navigators. The crusty old-timer captain is breaking in a brand new navigator.
The captain opens his briefcase, pulls out a .38 and rests it on the glare panel. He asks the navigator, "Know what this is for?"
"No, sir," replies the newbie.
"I use it on navigators that get us lost," explains the captain, winking at his first officer.
The navigator then opens his briefcase, pulls out a .45 and sets it on his chart table.
"What's THAT for?" queries the surprised captain.
"Well, sir," replies the navigator, "I'll know we're lost before you will."
The scene is some time in the old era when cockpits had round dials plus flight engineers and navigators. The crusty old-timer captain is breaking in a brand new navigator.
The captain opens his briefcase, pulls out a .38 and rests it on the glare panel. He asks the navigator, "Know what this is for?"
"No, sir," replies the newbie.
"I use it on navigators that get us lost," explains the captain, winking at his first officer.
The navigator then opens his briefcase, pulls out a .45 and sets it on his chart table.
"What's THAT for?" queries the surprised captain.
"Well, sir," replies the navigator, "I'll know we're lost before you will."
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In 1988 I was on the FJ Navigator Sub-Committee. Our man in the Ministry asked the question, "What is the future of the Navigator branch in the RAF?"
As it was, we thought, his job we were staggered. Now 22 years on Epsilon Minor has repeated the question.
The option for putting pilots into back seats could be seen as akin to 2nd and 3rd pilots in CA. They would need a little bit of enhanced training but not much. Pilots and navs on the F4 in the 60s did the same ground school so what is different?
Sense missed the point, no need to turn GR4s in to single seaters.
Many MPA pilots made a good fist of a tactical plot without the benefit of a tac display.
And the cost saving? Well 55 Sqn could be disbanded. I heard that it is likely that the Dominie will go out of service next year, so the answer is yes, now is probably the time to terminate the WSO specialisation.
As it was, we thought, his job we were staggered. Now 22 years on Epsilon Minor has repeated the question.
The option for putting pilots into back seats could be seen as akin to 2nd and 3rd pilots in CA. They would need a little bit of enhanced training but not much. Pilots and navs on the F4 in the 60s did the same ground school so what is different?
Sense missed the point, no need to turn GR4s in to single seaters.
Many MPA pilots made a good fist of a tactical plot without the benefit of a tac display.
And the cost saving? Well 55 Sqn could be disbanded. I heard that it is likely that the Dominie will go out of service next year, so the answer is yes, now is probably the time to terminate the WSO specialisation.
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Cards on the table. Navigator and proud of it.
If the technology works the days of the Navigator are over. No harm in that. We had fun and did a good job in our day. All I'd ask is when will industry deliver a mature weapons system which does what it says in the spec on day 1. Until that happens, 2 people (call them what you will) help fix the problems. OK it'll never happen.........
And before I get the Navigator jokes, bear in mind I spent my life "baby sitting"..... just joshing!
If the technology works the days of the Navigator are over. No harm in that. We had fun and did a good job in our day. All I'd ask is when will industry deliver a mature weapons system which does what it says in the spec on day 1. Until that happens, 2 people (call them what you will) help fix the problems. OK it'll never happen.........
And before I get the Navigator jokes, bear in mind I spent my life "baby sitting"..... just joshing!
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Navigators
You are all past your sell by date - move on and let the Defence Secretary and the nation save the money and put it towards more hardware ( more pilots?)
I am aware that the Navy doesn't have navigators on aircraft ( though they will soon have aircraft carriers without aircraft) I was thinking about ships.
You are all past your sell by date - move on and let the Defence Secretary and the nation save the money and put it towards more hardware ( more pilots?)
I am aware that the Navy doesn't have navigators on aircraft ( though they will soon have aircraft carriers without aircraft) I was thinking about ships.
Disappointing Off-spring
Talking to No1 son recently, he told me a mate had said 'your father must be very proud of you'.
'No'says No1.
'Why's that?' says mate.
'I've never captained The Arsenal and played for England' says rugby loving (the swine!) No1.
'But you were a 'Jag Mate' and Test Pilot' says mate.
'Yes, but I never flew with a nav' says No1.
'Ah' I see his point' says mate!!!
'No'says No1.
'Why's that?' says mate.
'I've never captained The Arsenal and played for England' says rugby loving (the swine!) No1.
'But you were a 'Jag Mate' and Test Pilot' says mate.
'Yes, but I never flew with a nav' says No1.
'Ah' I see his point' says mate!!!
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Of course I could play devils advocate and say with Predator, Global Hawk, The Easy Jet Proposals and UCAV the days of the pilot are numbered.............
So Epsilon Minus, nail your colours to the mast.
So Epsilon Minus, nail your colours to the mast.
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Rude; no. Harsh; yes. It cannot be nice for one to realise that technology has enforced their obscelsence. Yet many have had to bite this bullet and redirect their career paths.
The real nub of this debate, now that it has momentum, is the cockide shape that the 3 services have been left in, whilst operational, as a result of the SDR and that serious consideration should be given to cost savings that could be realised by the replacement of humans with computers.
No offence is intended but serious debate on this subject will be welcomed
EM
The real nub of this debate, now that it has momentum, is the cockide shape that the 3 services have been left in, whilst operational, as a result of the SDR and that serious consideration should be given to cost savings that could be realised by the replacement of humans with computers.
No offence is intended but serious debate on this subject will be welcomed
EM