Navigators in the 21st Century
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E-
How much to upgrade the flight deck of an E-3D and the GRs?
How much to pay navs to continue in service to fly them?
Which is cheaper?
Of course, this doesn't allow for the time the frames would spend off the flight line.
Anyhoo, a pilot mate once told me he thought the best person to 'fly' a UAV was a nav. I believe a significant proportion of the 'incidents' to date have been due to pilot error on landing, once that duty has been handed over to a black box it might solve that little problem!
How much to upgrade the flight deck of an E-3D and the GRs?
How much to pay navs to continue in service to fly them?
Which is cheaper?
Of course, this doesn't allow for the time the frames would spend off the flight line.
Anyhoo, a pilot mate once told me he thought the best person to 'fly' a UAV was a nav. I believe a significant proportion of the 'incidents' to date have been due to pilot error on landing, once that duty has been handed over to a black box it might solve that little problem!
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Raise? This isn't a game of cards!
Please confine yourself to the question. Thank you.
I'd say if you question my role in life I have right to know your background. Or is this a one sided discussion?
I'd say I made my view reasonably clear.
Please confine yourself to the question. Thank you.
I'd say if you question my role in life I have right to know your background. Or is this a one sided discussion?
I'd say I made my view reasonably clear.
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If you got rid of all navigators, the pilots would have to do some work pre-flight instead of drinking tea & coffee.
How many pilots can remember how to write a flight plan?
Seriously though, the writing has been on the wall for a while now and once the GR4 fleet is withdrawn, it will not be cost effective to train the odd nav to fly the E3 which will be the only thing left with a nav seat so I guess the job will be done by a 3rd pilot.
How many pilots can remember how to write a flight plan?
Seriously though, the writing has been on the wall for a while now and once the GR4 fleet is withdrawn, it will not be cost effective to train the odd nav to fly the E3 which will be the only thing left with a nav seat so I guess the job will be done by a 3rd pilot.
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I think the issue is what is a Navigators role?
As a FJ Nav I monitored, supported, worked the weapons system, looked out at the world, called the odd bad guy, stopped us running into other aircraft, supervised, trained..... In a modern airliner that type of role is called the First Officer (minus weapons).
You can train any aircrew chap to do any role including flying the jet. You just need to structure the training. Look at Apache. How much stick time does the front seat guy get? Not much.
Never did use my sextant skills in F4s or F3s. Shame really.
As a FJ Nav I monitored, supported, worked the weapons system, looked out at the world, called the odd bad guy, stopped us running into other aircraft, supervised, trained..... In a modern airliner that type of role is called the First Officer (minus weapons).
You can train any aircrew chap to do any role including flying the jet. You just need to structure the training. Look at Apache. How much stick time does the front seat guy get? Not much.
Never did use my sextant skills in F4s or F3s. Shame really.
Last edited by Geehovah; 6th Dec 2010 at 19:42.
Frustrated
You've hit on something I could never understand - by the way I was never a 'dyed in the wool,fully paid up member of the Nav Union' - why did BOAC get rid of Flt Navs in 1963,only to replace them with frustrated pilots sitting in the nav seat? When the VC10 and 707 went out of service late 70s/80 there was a huge surplus of pilots because the aircraft that replaced them only needed 2 pilots. Some of my ex-Herc mates were 'grounded' for 3 years, waiting for their next type! Had they kept navs this would not have happened. Who knows what they,BOAC, spent training reluctant pilots (including exHerc captains) to be navs?
At Lyneham in the early 70s I must have been regarded,certainly by the nav union, as a traitor - I couldn't see why a squadron of 21 crews needed 21 navs. We were only necessary on flights across the Atlantic,Indian Ocean, Pacific etc.In the transport world of those days it would have been much more cost effective to have a cadre of navs trained on all types ie Herc,VC10,Brit,Comet etc and only used on flights within the 'Flight navigator' areas.
I could understand the need for navs in Coastal and on the V-Force, and in the latter case the 'Black Buck' missions of the Falklands War proved that.
As for Astro,once the periscopic sextant came into use no particular skill was needed,provided the calculations were correct.
No 1 son told me he lost count of the number of times he 'bounced', or whatever modern terminology is,a Tornado - nav or no-nav!
Its an interesting subject; I've often heard civil pilots complaining about their workload in a busy ATC environment,and my suggestion that what is needed is a third crew member to monitor,maybe a cross between a nav and a flight engineer, is met with incredulity.
I also find it strange that long haul airliners now have 4 pilots to perform the task (all logging the hours,even in the bunk, I suppose!), where the early 747s etc made do with a crew of 3 - OK i know its because of crew-duty hours - but it doesn't seem a forward step.
Back to my beer, Brian W
At Lyneham in the early 70s I must have been regarded,certainly by the nav union, as a traitor - I couldn't see why a squadron of 21 crews needed 21 navs. We were only necessary on flights across the Atlantic,Indian Ocean, Pacific etc.In the transport world of those days it would have been much more cost effective to have a cadre of navs trained on all types ie Herc,VC10,Brit,Comet etc and only used on flights within the 'Flight navigator' areas.
I could understand the need for navs in Coastal and on the V-Force, and in the latter case the 'Black Buck' missions of the Falklands War proved that.
As for Astro,once the periscopic sextant came into use no particular skill was needed,provided the calculations were correct.
No 1 son told me he lost count of the number of times he 'bounced', or whatever modern terminology is,a Tornado - nav or no-nav!
Its an interesting subject; I've often heard civil pilots complaining about their workload in a busy ATC environment,and my suggestion that what is needed is a third crew member to monitor,maybe a cross between a nav and a flight engineer, is met with incredulity.
I also find it strange that long haul airliners now have 4 pilots to perform the task (all logging the hours,even in the bunk, I suppose!), where the early 747s etc made do with a crew of 3 - OK i know its because of crew-duty hours - but it doesn't seem a forward step.
Back to my beer, Brian W
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A casio mini-computer OTOH did away with all that once programmed.
Back to the debate though, most nav functions can be done by a pilot. No need to rebuild a GR4 or E3, just make sure the GIB as a full set of wings. They may get frustrated but no more than a copilot.
But Epsilon while a navigators day has about gone, the pilots will not be what it was soon either. Truck drivers to take the UAVs out and even fly a UAV operator, but your stick jockey's days are numbered too.
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Epsilon minus...
I never fail to be entertained by threads such as these, and usually I just peruse them with a bit of a grin on my face
But what the hell - I'm bored so I shall throw in a few thoughts.
It strikes me that (and forgive me for winding you up but...) you seem really quite excited about this issue, I thought I would inquire as to why you give a s**t about this?! Now, harsh you have admitted to being but I am gonna throw my hand out there (do you like the continuation of the card game theme?!) and guess that you are either a tad frustrated in the old bing bang wollop side of life or you are a Harrier pilot, oops I meant used to be a Harrier pilot and are jealous that navigators, WSOs, whatever went flying in jets today and you didn't??!
I can't wait for you to confirm or deny.....
I never fail to be entertained by threads such as these, and usually I just peruse them with a bit of a grin on my face
But what the hell - I'm bored so I shall throw in a few thoughts.It strikes me that (and forgive me for winding you up but...) you seem really quite excited about this issue, I thought I would inquire as to why you give a s**t about this?! Now, harsh you have admitted to being but I am gonna throw my hand out there (do you like the continuation of the card game theme?!) and guess that you are either a tad frustrated in the old bing bang wollop side of life or you are a Harrier pilot, oops I meant used to be a Harrier pilot and are jealous that navigators, WSOs, whatever went flying in jets today and you didn't??!
I can't wait for you to confirm or deny.....
By the way. Who put HMS Astute on the rocks?
Another thing that is not the issue here, E Minus, is that, contrary to your implication, my understanding is that Special Sea Dutymen were not closed up in ASTUTE and that, therefore, the Navigator (aka "Pilot" in the original meaning of the word) was probably not responsible.
So, until proved otherwise, perhaps it would be best if you confine your rant to the matter of light blue type navigators .......
Jack
Another thing that is not the issue here, E Minus, is that, contrary to your implication, my understanding is that Special Sea Dutymen were not closed up in ASTUTE and that, therefore, the Navigator (aka "Pilot" in the original meaning of the word) was probably not responsible.
So, until proved otherwise, perhaps it would be best if you confine your rant to the matter of light blue type navigators .......
Jack
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PN
Spot on. But Airforces wholly equipped with unmanned aircraft is a long way off. Putting an unmanned aircraft onto the deck of a pitching aircraft carrier will be a challenge! But what about the interim? Should we not move now to realise the huge cost savings of automating the role of the military navigator both in the air and on the sea?
Spot on. But Airforces wholly equipped with unmanned aircraft is a long way off. Putting an unmanned aircraft onto the deck of a pitching aircraft carrier will be a challenge! But what about the interim? Should we not move now to realise the huge cost savings of automating the role of the military navigator both in the air and on the sea?
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Geehovah
Epsilon minus is something to do with flight ops/flight dispatcher in the civilian world (impressive eh?).
Epsilon minus in answer to your question - a small amount of research would reveal that the navigator branch no longer exists. As for saving money on WSO training - yep, in the future it will be a saving.
Epsilon minus is something to do with flight ops/flight dispatcher in the civilian world (impressive eh?).
Epsilon minus in answer to your question - a small amount of research would reveal that the navigator branch no longer exists. As for saving money on WSO training - yep, in the future it will be a saving.
Last edited by Justanopinion; 6th Dec 2010 at 21:23.