Navigators in the 21st Century
Join Date: Sep 2002
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As a former fast jet nav, I agree that advances in avionics have meant that the navigator's role in the future RAF will disappear. What E- appears not to have considered, in the case of the GR4, is that the queue of pilots wanting to fill the back seats of GR4s is likely to be rather short. Since most GR4s are single-stick, the rear seat pilots would, presumably, not be permitted to log their flying as pilot hours. How popular would that be?
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Seldomfitforpurpose
As an ALM at Brize Norton your seat isn't exactly the best seat in the house is it? At least the 'nav' has a better view out of the window, jealous or not.
I have no idea what he is or was but if he was a Harrier pilot do you seriously think he is even remotely jealous that he did not go flying as a Nav today........................now turn that question round and ask yourself how many Nav's (read failed pilot) went flying today and wished with all their heart they had been good enough to be in the best seat in the house 
Geehovah
Judging by his post history E- is not current mil (and may never have been but like he says its not about him!) .... used to fly for BCal ..... they ceased operations over 20 years ago .... assuming he's still working it may be that he's in flight ops these days ....
And I know, I need to get a life!
Still, he's getting some good nibbles - and I'd love to be a fly on the wall were the Harrier jocks were ever to be told they are being re-roled as GR4 navigators!!!
Judging by his post history E- is not current mil (and may never have been but like he says its not about him!) .... used to fly for BCal ..... they ceased operations over 20 years ago .... assuming he's still working it may be that he's in flight ops these days ....
And I know, I need to get a life!Still, he's getting some good nibbles - and I'd love to be a fly on the wall were the Harrier jocks were ever to be told they are being re-roled as GR4 navigators!!!
Join Date: Apr 2006
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So what happens when the Global Positioning System goes to La-La land. In any major conflict it would take very very little to render the whole system unuseable. Going by recent reports relating to Chinese computers and PLC's running the UK's and US's power distribution networks, what's the betting they are also being used to control the GPS satellites. One internet packet from Beijing and all the satellites switch off. What then?
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Navy - Observers - Crabs - Navigators
Is there a difference?
Looking up Observer in the OED it states "Interested bystander" and one of those words is clearly wrong........................
Is there a difference?
Looking up Observer in the OED it states "Interested bystander" and one of those words is clearly wrong........................
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Bogart what?
This is from his web site.
Epsilon Minus is Bogart Shwadchuck.
My name's Bogart, I live in Canada, and I make things with computers. In grade school, I played guitar. In high school, I started messing with mod trackers. I picked up a drum machine, a couple of synths, a 4-track, and started messing around. Eventually, I ended up making EBM dance tracks. In 2000, I hooked up with Jennifer Parkin and wrote an album (Epsilon Minus). Released it on Alfa Matrix in 2002. We began working on a second album (Mark II), and I decided 1/4 way through to go on alone. It was still EBM dance, but experimented with alternate directions. Finished the album, released it on Alfa Matrix in 2003.
I've just finished my third album, Reinitialized. It completes a transition out of formula EBM dance into Trance/Techno/IDM territory, but maintaining some elements of EBM. Collaborations with guest vocalists infuse the singles with fresh energy. Reinitialized features vocals by:
Kristy Venrick of The Azoic on "Forever More"
Martha M. Arce of Distorted Reality on "Shattered"
Eric Oehler of Null Device on "The Road To Hell"
Ned Kirby of Stromkern on "Burden"
The instrumentals explore various approaches to beat-driven electronica. Elements of psytrance, techno, breakbeat, IDM, ambient, and synthpop combined in densely packed arrangments. Some focus on rhythmic progression, others on intricate melodies. All are extremely conducive to jumping around and doing the nasty. The album is due out on Alfa Matrix in early 2004.
I work with Macintosh computers. I am currently wringing new sounds out of Reason, Metasynth, ReBirth, Live, Cubase 5, SonicWORX PowerBundle, VocalWriter, and T-RackS. On the hardware end, I use a Yamaha AN1x, and Roland V-Drums. I monitor with Tannoy Reveals, and input/output via 2 Behringer MX602A mixers. My Mac is a Blue/white G3 tower. My microphone is a Rode NT-2.
With the exception of the recording of vocals by collaborators, all of whom I work with entirely via internet, all aspects of Epsilon Minus are my work. Songs, sounds, programming, recording, mixing, mastering, artwork, website, etc.
3P
Epsilon Minus is Bogart Shwadchuck.
My name's Bogart, I live in Canada, and I make things with computers. In grade school, I played guitar. In high school, I started messing with mod trackers. I picked up a drum machine, a couple of synths, a 4-track, and started messing around. Eventually, I ended up making EBM dance tracks. In 2000, I hooked up with Jennifer Parkin and wrote an album (Epsilon Minus). Released it on Alfa Matrix in 2002. We began working on a second album (Mark II), and I decided 1/4 way through to go on alone. It was still EBM dance, but experimented with alternate directions. Finished the album, released it on Alfa Matrix in 2003.
I've just finished my third album, Reinitialized. It completes a transition out of formula EBM dance into Trance/Techno/IDM territory, but maintaining some elements of EBM. Collaborations with guest vocalists infuse the singles with fresh energy. Reinitialized features vocals by:
Kristy Venrick of The Azoic on "Forever More"
Martha M. Arce of Distorted Reality on "Shattered"
Eric Oehler of Null Device on "The Road To Hell"
Ned Kirby of Stromkern on "Burden"
The instrumentals explore various approaches to beat-driven electronica. Elements of psytrance, techno, breakbeat, IDM, ambient, and synthpop combined in densely packed arrangments. Some focus on rhythmic progression, others on intricate melodies. All are extremely conducive to jumping around and doing the nasty. The album is due out on Alfa Matrix in early 2004.
I work with Macintosh computers. I am currently wringing new sounds out of Reason, Metasynth, ReBirth, Live, Cubase 5, SonicWORX PowerBundle, VocalWriter, and T-RackS. On the hardware end, I use a Yamaha AN1x, and Roland V-Drums. I monitor with Tannoy Reveals, and input/output via 2 Behringer MX602A mixers. My Mac is a Blue/white G3 tower. My microphone is a Rode NT-2.
With the exception of the recording of vocals by collaborators, all of whom I work with entirely via internet, all aspects of Epsilon Minus are my work. Songs, sounds, programming, recording, mixing, mastering, artwork, website, etc.
3P
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Good point re the cost though it only addresses the now and not the future.
Finding the money up front for an upgrade could be tricky though, and would, I suspect, take several years to reach service.
How many years has Tonka got left? 10 at a push? Could take 5 years for a fully capable avionics upgrade to hit the streets. Ain't gonna happen methinks.
Maybe they should pitch it to the current or next aerosystems course for their end-of-term presentation?
The E-3 should soldier on until '25. Again I doubt whether an upgrade would be in the offing unless it's extended beyond that date, which will probably happen but not get the green light for several years.
I'm pretty sure that a pilot could be trained on an ocu to do the job of a nav, certainly on E-3s, but there would be little to be gained, and much to be lost, by replacing existing navs with them.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 7th Dec 2010 at 10:04.
Throwing my hat in the ring...
Whether on GR4, E3 or any aircraft with navigators, putting a pilot in their seat could be beneficial. Having a flexible system whereby a guy can turn up for work and be programmed to fly in either seat is not only good for increasing awareness of the aircraft systems but could also mean that anyone could do each job and therefore increase crew availability. This could mean a net decrease in the number of personnel and the abolition of an entire training system.
I'm just amazed we haven't done it sooner!
BV
PS. While we're discussing flying pay on other threads is it sensible to pay pilots and navigators the same?
I'm just amazed we haven't done it sooner!
BV
PS. While we're discussing flying pay on other threads is it sensible to pay pilots and navigators the same?
WW,
I believe legacy rules apply, i.e. if you're already in the system the old rules will apply if you would be penalized under the new ones, and no doubt you are old enough for this not to be an issue for you personally, however......
My understanding of the new PAS pay spine is that Flt Lt pilots (as well as navs) will in future be limited to level 30, with Sqn Ldr Navs being able to reach level 33 and only Sqn Ldr pilots getting to the very top of the spine.
I believe legacy rules apply, i.e. if you're already in the system the old rules will apply if you would be penalized under the new ones, and no doubt you are old enough for this not to be an issue for you personally, however......
My understanding of the new PAS pay spine is that Flt Lt pilots (as well as navs) will in future be limited to level 30, with Sqn Ldr Navs being able to reach level 33 and only Sqn Ldr pilots getting to the very top of the spine.
To reply to the initial comment from E-, navs are being binned by the RAF, just maybe not as fast as he would like.
Like Air Eng, it is now pretty much a dead trade. In a few years time the C-130K and VC-10 will have gone, and the only navs left (IN SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS) will be on GR4, E-3D and the training system. Of these:
GR4 will be gone in the next 5-10 years, if manning get their act right they will ensure there are already enough FJ navs in the system to last that long.
E-3D might last a bit longer, with a few navs if they have not been replaced by technology, or a 3rd pilot(I believe a US E3 mid life update took out the nav many years ago - but am willing to be corrected).
Training. Either training will go to the civil sector under MFTS, or the RAF will decide it already has enough navs in the system to meet its requirements for the next 10 years. After all, Air Eng training has stopped, and there are still Air Engs on the E-3D for the next 10 years (replaced by a 3rd/4th pilot?). I believe the RAF has only been recruiting navs on short service commissions for some time now.
Whichever way you look at it, the RAF requirement for navs will be almost non existant in 10 years, with a marked drop (i.e. "binning") well before then.
So E-, to return to my original comment in this post, the RAF will be "binning" its navs in the near future - just maybe not as fast as you would like!
Oh yes, and for what it is worth, they are supposedly now WSOs not Navs.
Like Air Eng, it is now pretty much a dead trade. In a few years time the C-130K and VC-10 will have gone, and the only navs left (IN SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS) will be on GR4, E-3D and the training system. Of these:
GR4 will be gone in the next 5-10 years, if manning get their act right they will ensure there are already enough FJ navs in the system to last that long.
E-3D might last a bit longer, with a few navs if they have not been replaced by technology, or a 3rd pilot(I believe a US E3 mid life update took out the nav many years ago - but am willing to be corrected).
Training. Either training will go to the civil sector under MFTS, or the RAF will decide it already has enough navs in the system to meet its requirements for the next 10 years. After all, Air Eng training has stopped, and there are still Air Engs on the E-3D for the next 10 years (replaced by a 3rd/4th pilot?). I believe the RAF has only been recruiting navs on short service commissions for some time now.
Whichever way you look at it, the RAF requirement for navs will be almost non existant in 10 years, with a marked drop (i.e. "binning") well before then.
So E-, to return to my original comment in this post, the RAF will be "binning" its navs in the near future - just maybe not as fast as you would like!
Oh yes, and for what it is worth, they are supposedly now WSOs not Navs.
