WSOp's/WSO's at Kinloss, what does the future hold?
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Bit in the Sunday Express about redundancies being announced within the the next six weeks,with Kinloss being mentioned in particular. Unlikely but not unimaginable. Most people I've spoke to seems to think it'll take six months before anything would happen, personally I think it will be much quicker than that. Desk O's spend most of their time effectively grading people, getting to know the wheat from the chaff, compiling lists of A-graders and 'waste of rations'. I bet most Desk O's could have produced their lists of 'those to go' within hours of SDSR, probably as quick as it took to open the excel file and print it off.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
That's certainly the case PN, though it's fair to say that I as a wet man, or davejb as a dry man could cause a weapon to be dropped in the wrong place or on a friendly target. No, we couldn't actually push the button from where we sat but if the intent had been there ...
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Bit in the Sunday Express about redundancies being announced within the the next six weeks,with Kinloss being mentioned in particular. Unlikely but not unimaginable. Most people I've spoke to seems to think it'll take six months before anything would happen, personally I think it will be much quicker than that. Desk O's spend most of their time effectively grading people, getting to know the wheat from the chaff, compiling lists of A-graders and 'waste of rations'. I bet most Desk O's could have produced their lists of 'those to go' within hours of SDSR, probably as quick as it took to open the excel file and print it off.
It certainly isn't 6 weeks....
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No,
no NCO in a Nimrod could drop a weapon, you had to be an officer, and that's because it was set up that way.... had Nimrod crews been constituted of 12 Air Marshalls and one SAC steward then you'd have had to be a 3 * to drop a torpedo.... a more sensible question is 'does the need to drop weapons preclude the use of NCO navs/pilots' - and the answer is still no.
As some have mentioned WW2 then the destructive capability allowed to WW2 NCO bomber crews compared quite favourably with that of the Nimrod, there didn't seem to be any overrriding concern back then... and I'd argue that the modern NCO (aircrew or groundcrew) is proably rather better educated on the whole, and has a better idea of what they are there to achieve, how it fits into the overall plan, etc. so is probably more capable of making sensible decisions on engagement.
On Nimrods we killed subs and ships (for the most part) in the simulator - the lead dry and lead wet, at least, would have no hesitation in butting into the conversation if they did not agree with what the crew were about to do.... to be perfectly honest we'd have considered 'who had the release button' a fairly trivial detail.
Rear crew SAC - you'd probably still attract a percentage of likely NCA candidates, at 18 years old the flying is the attraction for many. Whether you'd be able to retain them is another matter, I very much doubt you'd get the vast resources of experience on squadrons (if we still had any) that we do (just) have these days, once the initial glamour of reeking of hydraulic fluid had passed. I don't know if you'd get sufficient candidates who could pass the selection process, but you might well - especially if you don't want anything like as many as you once did. There's more sense behind this idea than that something about a commission makes you magically better at decision making.
Dave
Very true but would you have risked an interview with Mick Muttit or Derek Murgatroyd afterwards?
- Ah, they were pussycats! I flew for a while with Mick as he headed for retirement and he was the nicest bloke you could hope to meet...annoy Spanners though and it'd be a different matter!
no NCO in a Nimrod could drop a weapon, you had to be an officer, and that's because it was set up that way.... had Nimrod crews been constituted of 12 Air Marshalls and one SAC steward then you'd have had to be a 3 * to drop a torpedo.... a more sensible question is 'does the need to drop weapons preclude the use of NCO navs/pilots' - and the answer is still no.
As some have mentioned WW2 then the destructive capability allowed to WW2 NCO bomber crews compared quite favourably with that of the Nimrod, there didn't seem to be any overrriding concern back then... and I'd argue that the modern NCO (aircrew or groundcrew) is proably rather better educated on the whole, and has a better idea of what they are there to achieve, how it fits into the overall plan, etc. so is probably more capable of making sensible decisions on engagement.
On Nimrods we killed subs and ships (for the most part) in the simulator - the lead dry and lead wet, at least, would have no hesitation in butting into the conversation if they did not agree with what the crew were about to do.... to be perfectly honest we'd have considered 'who had the release button' a fairly trivial detail.
Rear crew SAC - you'd probably still attract a percentage of likely NCA candidates, at 18 years old the flying is the attraction for many. Whether you'd be able to retain them is another matter, I very much doubt you'd get the vast resources of experience on squadrons (if we still had any) that we do (just) have these days, once the initial glamour of reeking of hydraulic fluid had passed. I don't know if you'd get sufficient candidates who could pass the selection process, but you might well - especially if you don't want anything like as many as you once did. There's more sense behind this idea than that something about a commission makes you magically better at decision making.
Dave
Very true but would you have risked an interview with Mick Muttit or Derek Murgatroyd afterwards?
- Ah, they were pussycats! I flew for a while with Mick as he headed for retirement and he was the nicest bloke you could hope to meet...annoy Spanners though and it'd be a different matter!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Derek too, however when our lead wet was promoted Mr M took him to one side for a full day briefing on the rights, wrongs and responsibilities of a MACR.
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The Captain of a MPA can sometimes be a position that is probably unique in any military setting, in that he can give orders to a vastly senior naval officer commanding another unit.
Dark Blue did not like that one bit, but how we enjoyed it.
Dark Blue did not like that one bit, but how we enjoyed it.
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getsometimein
I agree that nobody will find themselves selling the big issue in six weeks time and the timelines will be much longer, however the view that manning are floundering around under the weight of situation and will take months and months to come up with the solution is IMHO very wide of the mark. I think lists will be out in fairly short order. Whether that a trawl for volunteers or more or a mixture of offers and outright P45's remains to be seen.
I agree that nobody will find themselves selling the big issue in six weeks time and the timelines will be much longer, however the view that manning are floundering around under the weight of situation and will take months and months to come up with the solution is IMHO very wide of the mark. I think lists will be out in fairly short order. Whether that a trawl for volunteers or more or a mixture of offers and outright P45's remains to be seen.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The rounds I remember had calls for volunteers from specific groups, types, trades, length of service etc with the possibility of compulsory redundancies later should the requisite number of volunteers not be forthcoming.
At the same time compulsory notices were issued to specific groups along the same lines but different from the volunteer groups. For instance some gp capt were made redundant but there had been no call for volunteers.
In the first group non-FJ navs could volunteer but none were made compulsorily redundant at the first call.
The timescales were in the order or 12-18 months which given the time for resettlement courses, terminal leave and annual leave make the 12 months really quite short.
At the same time compulsory notices were issued to specific groups along the same lines but different from the volunteer groups. For instance some gp capt were made redundant but there had been no call for volunteers.
In the first group non-FJ navs could volunteer but none were made compulsorily redundant at the first call.
The timescales were in the order or 12-18 months which given the time for resettlement courses, terminal leave and annual leave make the 12 months really quite short.
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I agree that nobody will find themselves selling the big issue in six weeks time and the timelines will be much longer, however the view that manning are floundering around under the weight of situation and will take months and months to come up with the solution is IMHO very wide of the mark. I think lists will be out in fairly short order. Whether that a trawl for volunteers or more or a mixture of offers and outright P45's remains to be seen.
Perhaps a little less speculation, and a few more hard facts, are required.
I saw at work a few days ago a document, I believe it was a DIN, with some information on future potential redundancies post SDSR. It was split into separate sections for Civil servants and the military.
I believe it said that single service UINs would be issued "within 6 months". In the now obliqatory Q&A section it stated that redundancies would occur in three tranches, and was aimed to be completed by 2014.
I will try and remember tomorrow to check the title of the document, but it is widely available if you look, no doubt also on line - it is not a state secret. While the contents of this document may be overtaken by events, it shows the inital intent of the MOD - hopefully reducing speculation.
As to how quickly desk officers will have anything out for public consumption. Well, it will be easy for them to buy themselves some breathing space. If, as a desk officer, I think I will need to lose say 100 from trade X, then I can advertise 40 required in tranche 1 straight away. This won't embarrass me if my figure of 100 is not too accurate, and buy me a breathing space until tranche 2 is advertised to actually sort everything out properly.
I saw at work a few days ago a document, I believe it was a DIN, with some information on future potential redundancies post SDSR. It was split into separate sections for Civil servants and the military.
I believe it said that single service UINs would be issued "within 6 months". In the now obliqatory Q&A section it stated that redundancies would occur in three tranches, and was aimed to be completed by 2014.
I will try and remember tomorrow to check the title of the document, but it is widely available if you look, no doubt also on line - it is not a state secret. While the contents of this document may be overtaken by events, it shows the inital intent of the MOD - hopefully reducing speculation.
As to how quickly desk officers will have anything out for public consumption. Well, it will be easy for them to buy themselves some breathing space. If, as a desk officer, I think I will need to lose say 100 from trade X, then I can advertise 40 required in tranche 1 straight away. This won't embarrass me if my figure of 100 is not too accurate, and buy me a breathing space until tranche 2 is advertised to actually sort everything out properly.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Biggus, is this the one? [ARCHIVED CONTENT] Page not found which is the link to DIN 188 which is actually available in the internet or
http://www.nff.org.uk/pdfdocs/sdsr_r...yprogramme.pdf which says that 188 is only on the intranet but is available here. It does say in the heading Not to be communicated to anyone outside HM Services without Authority.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/33B5F...Provisions.pdf The detail is both odd why can you apply for compulsory redundancy?
The various links on each of the documents above seem to work as advertised allowing you to drill through to each relevant document.
http://www.nff.org.uk/pdfdocs/sdsr_r...yprogramme.pdf which says that 188 is only on the intranet but is available here. It does say in the heading Not to be communicated to anyone outside HM Services without Authority.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/33B5F...Provisions.pdf The detail is both odd why can you apply for compulsory redundancy?
The various links on each of the documents above seem to work as advertised allowing you to drill through to each relevant document.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 7th Nov 2010 at 20:09.
PN,
Your second link certainly seems to contain most of the same data. The end of para 2 on page 1 refers to single service DINs being published in "aprroximately 6 months" and Q9 of the Q&As refers to the 3 tranches and 2014....
Your second link certainly seems to contain most of the same data. The end of para 2 on page 1 refers to single service DINs being published in "aprroximately 6 months" and Q9 of the Q&As refers to the 3 tranches and 2014....
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Any update to what the future might hold?
36 man crews on Rivet Joint or 12 on a Sentinel? Could be a way of securing a few jobs although it might be a little cramped. Otherwise the future appears a bit bleak.
Anyone heard what the crew composition of the future tanker might be?
36 man crews on Rivet Joint or 12 on a Sentinel? Could be a way of securing a few jobs although it might be a little cramped. Otherwise the future appears a bit bleak.
Anyone heard what the crew composition of the future tanker might be?
Any update to what the future might hold?
Still we have heard "It'll be over by Christmas" before!
iRaven
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Sorry to bear bad news,
But RJ will not be there for anyone until 2014 at the earliest. All the PICs are full for the slots between now and arrival of UK frames, so don't get your hopes up.
But RJ will not be there for anyone until 2014 at the earliest. All the PICs are full for the slots between now and arrival of UK frames, so don't get your hopes up.
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PFMG,
If last week's brief was anything to go on Sentinel is a complete non starter as well.
There were enough AEop folk at last weeks WSOp Conf so there should be some pretty up to date gen available.
If last week's brief was anything to go on Sentinel is a complete non starter as well.
There were enough AEop folk at last weeks WSOp Conf so there should be some pretty up to date gen available.
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Have to agree with Widger - why do WSOps/WSOs from Nimrod feel that the RAF owes them a job on another platform at someone else's expense? If they closed an ABM Unit they wouldn't expect to take over some Air Traffic roles so why should maritime trained WSOps be able to bump people from Sentry, Sentinel or RJ posts? I have sympathy for your plight, but no-one owes you a living these days, sorry.