F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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All i know is this has become a top read - the fact is that if this Dave EVER gets into real time life and actually out on a, what's the word, squadron. Thats the bugger. on a squadron the crews will not be allowed to fly it for fear of breaking it, the lineys will be kept in a cage miles away and the super graduate techs will be employed in strict rotation after making sure their guard, ccs, fitness and all the other triv is done so that a simple task like a BF has to scheduled in weeks in advance.
Then Hal will say he's not happy about the pod bay doors and demand to be internet conected to LM - the sortie gets scrubbed and the interface unit (pilot) loses his months flying pay.
When he does eventually get airborne for his fifth and last flying hour of the year the weather will be crap.
He will have to land away whereupon Hal will complain about the pod bay doors again - there will be no special line for him to talk to the head meddler at LM - so he's going to have to connect via wifi - Hal gets a virus and refuses to work ever again - the chinese or the koreans got a bug into the software somehow and we end up with the worlds most expensive gate guardians......
G limits and transonic accel times are irrelevant.
Then Hal will say he's not happy about the pod bay doors and demand to be internet conected to LM - the sortie gets scrubbed and the interface unit (pilot) loses his months flying pay.
When he does eventually get airborne for his fifth and last flying hour of the year the weather will be crap.
He will have to land away whereupon Hal will complain about the pod bay doors again - there will be no special line for him to talk to the head meddler at LM - so he's going to have to connect via wifi - Hal gets a virus and refuses to work ever again - the chinese or the koreans got a bug into the software somehow and we end up with the worlds most expensive gate guardians......
G limits and transonic accel times are irrelevant.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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It seems to me that the level of personal abuse on this thread is remarkable even by PPRuNe standards.
In addition none of those involved in this slanging are even remotely trying to answer the thread topic.
In addition none of those involved in this slanging are even remotely trying to answer the thread topic.
JF
It makes more sense if you put JSFfan on your ignore list. He's a troll - a sort of inverse Tribble who thrives on being abused.
There are about 20 pro-JSF trolls (some with multiple identities, including JSFfan). They're not interested in anything except vandalizing discussion threads where the program's many and serious challenges with cost and schedule are being aired.
Luckily we have only one of them here. Until the Mods squash him - jam on!
LO
It makes more sense if you put JSFfan on your ignore list. He's a troll - a sort of inverse Tribble who thrives on being abused.
There are about 20 pro-JSF trolls (some with multiple identities, including JSFfan). They're not interested in anything except vandalizing discussion threads where the program's many and serious challenges with cost and schedule are being aired.
Luckily we have only one of them here. Until the Mods squash him - jam on!
LO
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Originally Posted by JSF fan
Our hornet pilots knew bugger all about the true capabilities of the f-111 and visa versa.
Conversely, the Pig guys knew that if we were in the area, they were likely to die....that's all they needed to know.
I'm generally pro-F-35, but that's because I have looked inside the paper bag and I like what I see...despite the seemingly endless programmatic woes!
But JSF fan, your childish and unsophisticated endorsements based on what you've read in the press or heard on other forums are doing the cause no good whatsoever...
Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 17th Jan 2013 at 21:50.
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In addition none of those involved in this slanging are even remotely trying to answer the thread topic.
40 pages of fun since then.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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LO
I don't disagree with what you said in your last post but this thread should not be about JSF at all. Only what we can/should do if it is cancelled.
JF
I don't disagree with what you said in your last post but this thread should not be about JSF at all. Only what we can/should do if it is cancelled.
JF
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I'm still advocating a split buy, something like a Gripen /EF mix or Gripen/ Rafale or Gripen/F18SH, with many commonality possibilities EJ200 or GE F414 engines, similar radar architecture (Northrop AESA radars or Selex based ones) ,a common weapons arsenal ,BK27mm gun, Meteor, IRST, bombs smart ones dumb ones and even smarter ones, things like Brimstone , SCALP/StormShadow, etc. ... . a good data-link and interchangeable pods, screens, everything down to the flight suite and helmet with HMCS would be a very attractive package as I see it.
The only thing we really give up on is the deep rooted stealth as used in the likes of the F35, it compromises the whole package too much and there are better alternatives for first day strike (cruise missiles/UAV next gen).
The whole stealth idea for a long term project like the F35 clearly (rumours of using it 60 years) is a foolish idea anyway.
Just look at how fast the F117 became obsolete, new radar, sensor and computing technologies will do exactly the same with the F35 and it will take a lot less time than anyone envisaged at the birth of the JSF stealth idea, it is the old conundrum all over again, what is best armour or ammo, in this case Stealth or detection technology, it will always be much quicker and cheaper to develop a new sensor defeating or largely negating stealth while it will be virtually impossible to change a whole aircraft once its shape and materials are set in stone.
After reality caught up with the F35, it will still be a big fat overweight and draggy bird which keeps on consuming too much fuel, costing too much to operate and will not offer any substantial advantage when it comes to low observability.
Luckily we're still at a point(but time is fading quickly) when we can safe that what is good about the JSF, namely its separate systems, the Radar, the optical and IR-sensors, the engine and yes in time even the helmet.
All of which can be used by most, if not all, of the legacy fighters and latest Euro Canards.
For us Europeans this could be even better than joining the JSF project, we can make ourselves a good couple of fighters keeping the technology in house or for those that wish to team up with our American friends maybe go in an alliance with a good third partner (like Boeing or Northrop) and use and further develop one of the American fighters.
Personally I would love to see us (Belgium) teaming up with the Dutch, Danish, Swiss and even the Norwegians, if they can be swinged away from their infatuation with all things American, and go with a split Eurofighter/Gripen NG buy with EJ230 or 260 engines.
Teaming up with Bae/SaaB we can build something great which can serve us for many decades in sufficient numbers without bankrupting us in the long run.
my two cents.
The only thing we really give up on is the deep rooted stealth as used in the likes of the F35, it compromises the whole package too much and there are better alternatives for first day strike (cruise missiles/UAV next gen).
The whole stealth idea for a long term project like the F35 clearly (rumours of using it 60 years) is a foolish idea anyway.
Just look at how fast the F117 became obsolete, new radar, sensor and computing technologies will do exactly the same with the F35 and it will take a lot less time than anyone envisaged at the birth of the JSF stealth idea, it is the old conundrum all over again, what is best armour or ammo, in this case Stealth or detection technology, it will always be much quicker and cheaper to develop a new sensor defeating or largely negating stealth while it will be virtually impossible to change a whole aircraft once its shape and materials are set in stone.
After reality caught up with the F35, it will still be a big fat overweight and draggy bird which keeps on consuming too much fuel, costing too much to operate and will not offer any substantial advantage when it comes to low observability.
Luckily we're still at a point(but time is fading quickly) when we can safe that what is good about the JSF, namely its separate systems, the Radar, the optical and IR-sensors, the engine and yes in time even the helmet.
All of which can be used by most, if not all, of the legacy fighters and latest Euro Canards.
For us Europeans this could be even better than joining the JSF project, we can make ourselves a good couple of fighters keeping the technology in house or for those that wish to team up with our American friends maybe go in an alliance with a good third partner (like Boeing or Northrop) and use and further develop one of the American fighters.
Personally I would love to see us (Belgium) teaming up with the Dutch, Danish, Swiss and even the Norwegians, if they can be swinged away from their infatuation with all things American, and go with a split Eurofighter/Gripen NG buy with EJ230 or 260 engines.
Teaming up with Bae/SaaB we can build something great which can serve us for many decades in sufficient numbers without bankrupting us in the long run.
my two cents.
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Really? Any experienced Hornet driver worth a damn learnt very early on what a Pig could and could not do. We knew it could shoot its wad and run away very fast, and we knew we could bingo it very quickly if we could get it turning...
Conversely, the Pig guys knew that if we were in the area, they were likely to die....that's all they needed to know.
I'm generally pro-F-35, but that's because I have looked inside the paper bag and I like what I see...despite the seemingly endless programmatic woes!
But JSF fan, your childish and unsophisticated endorsements based on what you've read in the press or heard on other forums are doing the cause no good whatsoever...
Conversely, the Pig guys knew that if we were in the area, they were likely to die....that's all they needed to know.
I'm generally pro-F-35, but that's because I have looked inside the paper bag and I like what I see...despite the seemingly endless programmatic woes!
But JSF fan, your childish and unsophisticated endorsements based on what you've read in the press or heard on other forums are doing the cause no good whatsoever...
You are also up the wrong tree if you think our hornet guys know about what's under the skin of the the super hornet.
I actually take the f-35/f-22 pilot interviews on SLD quite seriously, you don't have to share my interest in what they say.
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Why would an F 18C pilot with a DV be so out of touch with what the F 18E/F is, or is not capable of?
Also, I would rest assured that there have been pilot cross-overs from the F111 force to the F18 force, and information has been shared at least once in the F111's history...
Also, I would rest assured that there have been pilot cross-overs from the F111 force to the F18 force, and information has been shared at least once in the F111's history...
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The pilot crossovers have a chinese wall, they will not disclose to the other pilots about their old ride, other than bar talk that counts for nothing. Like wise our F-22 exchange pilots don't come home and spill their guts to the group. It's not the way any air force works.
Last edited by JSFfan; 18th Jan 2013 at 01:15.
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JSF,
Far for me to attack you on a personal level but first stating this;
And subsequently saying this
Is contradictory to say the least.
You put a lot of faith in some website where active duty pilots are publicly interviewed on their experiences with their fighter jets but seriously doubt that the same pilots pass any valuable info on to their comrades in the privacy of their briefing rooms, clubhouses or wherever else they gather.
If anything you should put little value in what any active military says during an interview, they pretty much say whatever their superiors decide they can and must say, that's the way the military work.
Far for me to attack you on a personal level but first stating this;
I actually take the f-35/f-22 pilot interviews on SLD quite seriously, you don't have to share my interest in what they say.
The pilot crossovers have a chinese wall, they will not disclose to the other pilots about their old ride, other than bar talk that counts for nothing. Like wise our F-22 exchange pilots don't come home and spill their guts to the group. It's not the way any air force works.
You put a lot of faith in some website where active duty pilots are publicly interviewed on their experiences with their fighter jets but seriously doubt that the same pilots pass any valuable info on to their comrades in the privacy of their briefing rooms, clubhouses or wherever else they gather.
If anything you should put little value in what any active military says during an interview, they pretty much say whatever their superiors decide they can and must say, that's the way the military work.
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Where did I even suggest that pilot interviews spill their classified guts and there is indeed miscommunication if this is what you took from what I have said ?
The pilots interview disclose unclassified overview of platform and 5th gen system stuff in interview, that I find is of a much higher order than the nonsense you will read on AV Week.
The pilots interview disclose unclassified overview of platform and 5th gen system stuff in interview, that I find is of a much higher order than the nonsense you will read on AV Week.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
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WW,
Possibly. Perhaps his fee is the first of the savings.
Having watched the puff piece, I was surprised that the B achieved all of the 2012 test points by June. To the uninitiated (ie, me) this suggests either a level of underprogramming, or an expectation that they would take a lot longer than was the case. Does anyone know* which, or which combination, of these it was?
Thanks
S41
*JSFfan: this probably excludes you.
Possibly. Perhaps his fee is the first of the savings.
Having watched the puff piece, I was surprised that the B achieved all of the 2012 test points by June. To the uninitiated (ie, me) this suggests either a level of underprogramming, or an expectation that they would take a lot longer than was the case. Does anyone know* which, or which combination, of these it was?
Thanks
S41
*JSFfan: this probably excludes you.
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Not sure if this has already been addressed, but LM released a response to the DOT&E report.
Lockheed addresses Pentagon F-35 DOT&E report
Also, just an observation, but it's interesting to see an incredibly negative attitude toward the F-35 here on these forums, which is in stark comparison to some other forums I've read through in which current serving members of industry have conveyed a very optimistic and positive attitude toward the program..
Lockheed addresses Pentagon F-35 DOT&E report
Also, just an observation, but it's interesting to see an incredibly negative attitude toward the F-35 here on these forums, which is in stark comparison to some other forums I've read through in which current serving members of industry have conveyed a very optimistic and positive attitude toward the program..