F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
USMC doctrine 20 years ago was evolving away from this very limited concept of amphibious ops. The USMC aren't assaulting Tarawa anymore. Their operation concept (as of about 9 years ago when I left the Navy) was a lot more nuanced than that, and used as a basic principle the matter of using their tools to assault behind the coast, as well as coming in over the beach ... but the beach is not necessarily what is being assaulted.
Been a bit out of touch of late, so I don't know for sure if they have regressed, but I think your concern is a bit dated. The one thing I found consistent in the USMC warfighting method was their combined arms approach to pretty much everything.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LO,
As you responded, I'll do likewise.
I continue to be slightly sceptical about a Gripen getting off an 800m strip with a full op load. Especially anywhere hot, high or both. (Actually, I've always been a huge fan of the Swedish aircraft industry and think they produce great designs - they just haven't done a STOVL).
To your point about fighters and short runways. As you take off with more weight than you land with and you have the same wing area to do the lifting, its the takeoff (at full load) that's the crippler. Not the landing.
Yes, today's fighters will do a 'STO'. Big wings and lots of thrust will allow them to take off in a short distance. But not at MGTOW. Or anything much near it. Or when it's hot. It's physic, not opinion.. To do a proper 'STO' you need an aircraft that is designed to do one. That means either powered lift of some sort, or aggressive high lift devices.
Sorry, but I will go into your slightly 'conops' point. The USMC are not trying to do 'mass logistics transport'. That's not what they do. If they want really heavy loads they will use CH-53K. That's what they are buying them for. If they want stuff moved fast they'll use MV-22. That's what they bought them for. They have actually thought this stuff through, and they are not idiots. However, they could be wrong, and any of us can disagree with them.
Anyway, have a good one,
Out
Engines
As you responded, I'll do likewise.
I continue to be slightly sceptical about a Gripen getting off an 800m strip with a full op load. Especially anywhere hot, high or both. (Actually, I've always been a huge fan of the Swedish aircraft industry and think they produce great designs - they just haven't done a STOVL).
To your point about fighters and short runways. As you take off with more weight than you land with and you have the same wing area to do the lifting, its the takeoff (at full load) that's the crippler. Not the landing.
Yes, today's fighters will do a 'STO'. Big wings and lots of thrust will allow them to take off in a short distance. But not at MGTOW. Or anything much near it. Or when it's hot. It's physic, not opinion.. To do a proper 'STO' you need an aircraft that is designed to do one. That means either powered lift of some sort, or aggressive high lift devices.
Sorry, but I will go into your slightly 'conops' point. The USMC are not trying to do 'mass logistics transport'. That's not what they do. If they want really heavy loads they will use CH-53K. That's what they are buying them for. If they want stuff moved fast they'll use MV-22. That's what they bought them for. They have actually thought this stuff through, and they are not idiots. However, they could be wrong, and any of us can disagree with them.
Anyway, have a good one,
Out
Engines
Well, unless we're talking cable, it's not landing that's the problem, it's stopping. Point taken about AUW, but massive thrust is often a lot more 1/2 MV^2 than little brakes. If you see what I mean.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
USMC Hornets use portable arresting engines at the FOBs that have shorter runways. But they pretty much extend the runways at the more "permanent" bases to handle C-17s, so...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,587
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Back on the thread about V-22s for UK being used as refuellers ground/air as mentioned by the USMC at the time has a lot of info. Yes the USMC change/evolve and have re-iterated many times they are not the '2nd land army' and that they will operate from a sea base going ashore as need be in places they choose. Recently a new doctrine for USMC was released - I'll look for it meanwhile to harsh some mellows about the above discussion - looks like F-35C HOOK testing is underway. Yay!
Break De Fence 29 May 2014
https://twitter.com/BreakingDefense/...439489/photo/1
F-35 Achieves Three Major Flight Test Milestones On Same Day 29 May 2014
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2014/may/150529ae_f-35-achieves-three-milestones-on-same-day.html
STRIKE TEST NEWS Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 23 Newsletter 2011 Issue
http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad/in...ownload&id=769
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bo1NAvkCIAAxSW4.jpg
Break De Fence 29 May 2014
"The F-35C passed landing at max sink speed of 21.4 feet per second [1,284 feet per minute] to test landing gear, airframe arrestment system"
F-35 Achieves Three Major Flight Test Milestones On Same Day 29 May 2014
“...The F-35C, designed for aircraft carrier operations, completed a landing at its maximum sink speed to test the aircraft’s landing gear, airframe and arrestment system at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland. “Five sorties were conducted, building up the maximum sink rate test condition of 21.4 feet per second, which represents the maximum sink speed planned for this test,” McFarlan said. During the tests, the F-35C did three arrestments, several touch and goes and one bolter. The landings were to demonstrate structural readiness for arrested landings on an aircraft carrier at sea.
Fleet-wide, the F-35 has, to date, amassed more than 17,000 flight hours, with all three variant aircraft at the F-35 Integrated Training Center at Eglin AFB, Florida, surpassing the 5,000 sorties milestone this week....”
Fleet-wide, the F-35 has, to date, amassed more than 17,000 flight hours, with all three variant aircraft at the F-35 Integrated Training Center at Eglin AFB, Florida, surpassing the 5,000 sorties milestone this week....”
STRIKE TEST NEWS Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 23 Newsletter 2011 Issue
"...“Shake, Rattle and Roll” testing... Arrested landings include high sink rates up to 20 feet per second (which translates to 1,200 feet per minute or about a 5° flight path angle)...”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bo1NAvkCIAAxSW4.jpg
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 30th May 2014 at 05:21. Reason: date and feets doan fail me now + more info + Shake Yur Rattle & Roll + adURL
Hmm .... is this evidence that they have the hook SNAFU all sorted out?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,587
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Both Oz PM and DefMin have expressed interest in finding out about F-35Bs on our LHDs with the PM directing that the next Defence White Paper consider this possibility. Still a lot to work out however the DefMin revealed that this has been an option 'since day one'. But in the bottom drawer mostly. Anyhoo here is the inevitable cartoonie from:
Cartoon from:
The Cost of Defence ASPI Defence Budget Brief 2014–2015
https://www.aspi.org.au/publications...efence2014.pdf (6.4Mb)
Cartoon from:
The Cost of Defence ASPI Defence Budget Brief 2014–2015
“...No doubt the situation will become obvious in the development of the 2015 Defence White Paper. When it does, we should expect to see two things. First, the size of the force will grow. An extra battalion or two to crew the new LHD amphibious vessels would help bring things into balance, as would a squadron of jump jet variants of the F-35 to reinstate the fleet air arm aboard the LHD. Such possibilities aren’t to be discounted. Back in 2008 Andrew Davies and I modelled the sorts of defence forces we could have if we spent around 2% of GDP in the 2020s (see the ASPI paper Strategic Choices: Defending Australia in the 21st Century) and we were surprised by just how much capability could be afforded....” (page 141)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Courtney Mil
Well, unless we're talking cable, it's not landing that's the problem, it's stopping. Point taken about AUW, but massive thrust is often a lot more 1/2 MV^2 than little brakes. If you see what I mean.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,587
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
I wonder if the chaps mentioned below do it at night on a wet deck and not just in a sim.
The SAAB JAS 39 Gripen 01 jun 14 greg goebel
The SAAB JAS 39 Gripen
The SAAB JAS 39 Gripen 01 jun 14 greg goebel
"...Gripen does not have a thrust reverser. The canard foreplanes can be tilted almost 90 degrees to act as airbrakes on landing. There are carbon brakes on all the wheels of the tricycle landing gear to reduce landing roll. Interestingly, pilots using the Gripen flight simulators have performed simulated carrier landings, without an arresting hook; it seems a bit unlikely that this will ever be done in practice, though no doubt some Gripen pilots would give it a shot if they got the chance. The landing gear has an antiskid system...."
CM - Was about to say that. Back when the F-22 spec (ATF) was going to include a 1500-foot field length, there were two factors involved: the perceived g-limits of practical wheelbrakes (consider what a 3500 pound Lambo uses to stop and compare it with any 10x-heavier fighter) and consistent, accurate landings given the momentum and low-speed control response of fighters/engines.
The result was the F-15 SMTD with huge canards and inflight, 2D thrust reversers
.
Better flight controls, autothrottles and HUD landing guidance help with the scatter problem today. Typhoon has fan-cooled brakes, too (it's not just stopping - do you then have to wait for the brakes to cool?).
The Gripen E/F advertised landing distance is 600 m vs 500 m for the C/D. The real-world road bases were 800 m long and I don't think that there were any load restrictions - the A-model in the video linked above is, as noted, carrying 5000 lbs of weapons and a tank. After all, road bases were not a PR thing or a contingency operation - it was what the entire AF was going to do when the balloon went up. The only caveat is that it was probably a Swedish summer day rather than 95 F.
The result was the F-15 SMTD with huge canards and inflight, 2D thrust reversers
. Better flight controls, autothrottles and HUD landing guidance help with the scatter problem today. Typhoon has fan-cooled brakes, too (it's not just stopping - do you then have to wait for the brakes to cool?).
The Gripen E/F advertised landing distance is 600 m vs 500 m for the C/D. The real-world road bases were 800 m long and I don't think that there were any load restrictions - the A-model in the video linked above is, as noted, carrying 5000 lbs of weapons and a tank. After all, road bases were not a PR thing or a contingency operation - it was what the entire AF was going to do when the balloon went up. The only caveat is that it was probably a Swedish summer day rather than 95 F.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,587
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
I wonder where the 'grass & dirt' idea came from? But a n y w a y. . . .
F-35B Will Fly, Hover, Not Land Vertically At RIAT, Farnborough 30 May 2014 Colin Clark
F-35B Will Fly, Hover, Not Land Vertically At RIAT, Farnborough « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
F-35B Will Fly, Hover, Not Land Vertically At RIAT, Farnborough 30 May 2014 Colin Clark
"Will the F-35B land vertically at the Royal International Air Tattoo or the Farnborough Air Show? No. Will it hover? Yes.
F-35 program spokesman Joe DellaVedova told me that the Marine version of the Joint Strike Fighter will perform short takeoffs and landings and perform hovers at both shows. I’m betting you can expect the same at the July 4 christening of the HMS Queen Elizabeth....
...A source familiar with the plane’s testing tells me the aircraft could easily and safely perform several vertical landings on an up-to-date military grade runway....
...So, the question remains, why not land vertically at the shows? ”We want to showcase how we will operate this plane during combat operations,” Capt. Richard Ulsh, a spokesman for the Marine deputy commandant for aviation, told me today. During a combat operation or for expeditionary use the plane would perform rolling or short takeoffs and landings on land to conserve fuel, Ulsh said. The plane is undergoing testing for landings on concrete and grass and dirt. The tests for concrete are finished, Ulsh said, but those for grass and dirt takeoffs and landings are not complete...."
F-35 program spokesman Joe DellaVedova told me that the Marine version of the Joint Strike Fighter will perform short takeoffs and landings and perform hovers at both shows. I’m betting you can expect the same at the July 4 christening of the HMS Queen Elizabeth....
...A source familiar with the plane’s testing tells me the aircraft could easily and safely perform several vertical landings on an up-to-date military grade runway....
...So, the question remains, why not land vertically at the shows? ”We want to showcase how we will operate this plane during combat operations,” Capt. Richard Ulsh, a spokesman for the Marine deputy commandant for aviation, told me today. During a combat operation or for expeditionary use the plane would perform rolling or short takeoffs and landings on land to conserve fuel, Ulsh said. The plane is undergoing testing for landings on concrete and grass and dirt. The tests for concrete are finished, Ulsh said, but those for grass and dirt takeoffs and landings are not complete...."
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: A lot closer to the sea
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A bit of expectation management going on here. The fact that the aircraft is coming over at all is a big leap for the US and shows how much the UK involvement is valued.
He added that vertical landings consume a great deal of fuel and claimed the Marines made their decision in part because they are “trying to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars.”
After blowing >$20 billion in R&D on the world's slowest, shortest-range, lowest-payload and most expensive fighter, that is a larf and a half, it is.
After blowing >$20 billion in R&D on the world's slowest, shortest-range, lowest-payload and most expensive fighter, that is a larf and a half, it is.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: A lot closer to the sea
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F-35B can be called a V/STOL jet actually; just because it can doesn't mean it has to!
Joe does a good job usually, the poor wording comes from the USMC Captain...
Joe does a good job usually, the poor wording comes from the USMC Captain...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,587
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Boiling Bunnies - Shreeek Shreeek!
Will the F-35B have this problem during 'on the grass testing'?
Harrier makes final appearance at Dunsfold 50 Years After First Vertical Take-Off 17 Nov 2010 Tom Hart
Harrier makes final appearance at Dunsfold 50 Years After First Vertical Take-Off | Surrey Heath Residents Blog
Harrier makes final appearance at Dunsfold 50 Years After First Vertical Take-Off 17 Nov 2010 Tom Hart
"...Asked for a particular positive memory, Jim recollected this comic-strip-esque tale:
“One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen. During the airshow in 2006, as the Harrier was transversing sideways down the runway, it happened to fly over an area with lots of rabbit holes and watching the down draft blowing the rabbits out of the hole and up into the air was incredibly funny!”..."
“One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen. During the airshow in 2006, as the Harrier was transversing sideways down the runway, it happened to fly over an area with lots of rabbit holes and watching the down draft blowing the rabbits out of the hole and up into the air was incredibly funny!”..."
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to join in on the prevalent "apples-to-oranges" comparisons that are going on in this thread of late, the Harrier never did a VL at any air shows. It did a STO to begin the show, burnt off some gas by way of a few minutes of conventional manoeuvres, a quick RVL 'bounce' or two, and then some hovering which culminated in a final RVL. Why? So the jet didn't trash the asphalt.
F-35B shouldn't be any different. Yes it kicks out more thrust but don't believe all the hyperbole being spread. It won't cause the earth to combust, dislodge planets from orbit and certainly won't cause sea levels to rise anywhere near as much as the hot air coming from Sweetman will.
I think it's great that we'll see JSF fly in UK skies. I am, however, standing by for the inevitable, "it can't do a Super Cobra so it can't be any good"-type commentary that will follow its debut.
F-35B shouldn't be any different. Yes it kicks out more thrust but don't believe all the hyperbole being spread. It won't cause the earth to combust, dislodge planets from orbit and certainly won't cause sea levels to rise anywhere near as much as the hot air coming from Sweetman will.
I think it's great that we'll see JSF fly in UK skies. I am, however, standing by for the inevitable, "it can't do a Super Cobra so it can't be any good"-type commentary that will follow its debut.