F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Sorry Bastardeux my frustration at the repeated "no aircraft" line was getting the better of me. In circs where current plans (including the 48) already take us down to 7 sqns of FJ I'd still be genuinely surprised - and very worried - if the commitment to 48 didn't hold good.
In practice I certainly don't expect to see 24 embarked very often at all, but in some ways for UK diplomacy purposes the possibility of a surge to 24 - even if only demonstrated very occasionally - would probably suffice, and 48 airframes would just about permit that.
I'd concede though that building up to 48 and being able to generate 24 for ops isn't something we'll see near term, and 10 years is a long time in politics. Hey ho. I'll do my best to hang on to what little optimism I have left for the time being.
In practice I certainly don't expect to see 24 embarked very often at all, but in some ways for UK diplomacy purposes the possibility of a surge to 24 - even if only demonstrated very occasionally - would probably suffice, and 48 airframes would just about permit that.
I'd concede though that building up to 48 and being able to generate 24 for ops isn't something we'll see near term, and 10 years is a long time in politics. Hey ho. I'll do my best to hang on to what little optimism I have left for the time being.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any existing LHx will likely need to be modified to operate the F-35B. Even the brand new USS America LHA needs modification to its deck structure, and relocation of under deck equipment to mitigate thermal loads that were not anticipated during its design (this is in addition to the new Thermion deck coating.) It is a safe bet that both the Spanish and Italian LHD designs will need similar modifications, plus their aviation fuel bunkerage, weapons storage and MX spaces will need to be enlarged / modified. The USN will manage the thermal situation by rotating landing spots until each ship visits the yard to be modified - not sure if this is possible on smaller deck LHDs.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes
on
45 Posts
'Maus92' safe bet is looking a tad unsafe to me but I'm not a betting individual - I look for evidence. Here is some from an Italian RADM Harrier pilot:
The Italian Approach to the F-35: A Discussion with Rear Admiral Covella 2013-11-08 By Robbin Laird
The Italian Approach to the F-35: A Discussion with Rear Admiral Covella | SLDInfo
I have seen only quotes suggesting the Spanish LHD Juan Carlos I is OK for F-35B use but nothing detailed AFAIK. However now that the F-35B possibility is back in the political arena in our Great Southern Land then more details about these aspects may emerge over time.
The Italian Approach to the F-35: A Discussion with Rear Admiral Covella 2013-11-08 By Robbin Laird
The Italian Approach to the F-35: A Discussion with Rear Admiral Covella | SLDInfo
RADM Covella: "...The Cavour will see some changes as well; there are no structural changes necessary but some adaptations such as dedicated secure networks and laying down a new type of surface treatment for the ship flight deck...."
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/d...-Pietrucha.pdf
Owch.
Conclusion
It is time for a rational discussion of the F-35. Such a dialogue would
have to be free from the vacuum of a notional volume of contested airspace
and consider the context of the complete CAF enterprise and its
application across the globe. The F-35 program has long since passed the
point where we can expect it to provide a substantial improvement in a
broad war-fighting context over its predecessors. Designed for a European
conflict that did not occur and a threat environment less advanced
than the present one, the F-35 program offers little improvement over its
predecessors and demands vast resources from diminishing funds.
Following the example of the Comanche program, we should consider
cancelling the F-35 in favor of a robust, modernized CAF that emphasizes
broad capabilities rather than occupying the short-range
stealthy niche. Facing a decade of reduced budgetary authority, we
must follow a prudent path towards recovery after more than 20 years
of continuous combat operations. Doing so will help address a number
of collateral issues, including force readiness, global reach, and the inventory
of fighter/attack aircrews. Viable alternatives to the F-35 exist
if we have the courage to examine them.
Owch.
Conclusion
It is time for a rational discussion of the F-35. Such a dialogue would
have to be free from the vacuum of a notional volume of contested airspace
and consider the context of the complete CAF enterprise and its
application across the globe. The F-35 program has long since passed the
point where we can expect it to provide a substantial improvement in a
broad war-fighting context over its predecessors. Designed for a European
conflict that did not occur and a threat environment less advanced
than the present one, the F-35 program offers little improvement over its
predecessors and demands vast resources from diminishing funds.
Following the example of the Comanche program, we should consider
cancelling the F-35 in favor of a robust, modernized CAF that emphasizes
broad capabilities rather than occupying the short-range
stealthy niche. Facing a decade of reduced budgetary authority, we
must follow a prudent path towards recovery after more than 20 years
of continuous combat operations. Doing so will help address a number
of collateral issues, including force readiness, global reach, and the inventory
of fighter/attack aircrews. Viable alternatives to the F-35 exist
if we have the courage to examine them.
Last edited by typerated; 18th May 2014 at 07:12.
Hmm. An O6 writes a paper in the Air & Space Power Journal which debates perfectly valid opinions, but has no actual input to decision-making. The Telegraph translates this into "the programme may be canned due to poor performance".
The standard of journalism really is slipping.
The standard of journalism really is slipping.
Par for the course I'm afraid. Reminds me of where policymakers present a full range of options including, for completeness, "thinking the unthinkable", such as cancelling a project. When it leaks, editors invariably headline it "Ministers consider cancelling x" which in one very strict sense is true, and helps sell papers, but is highly misleading.
Which reminds me, we must be overdue for a Winslow Wheeler rentaquote, surely? It's been at least a week.
Which reminds me, we must be overdue for a Winslow Wheeler rentaquote, surely? It's been at least a week.
Perhaps they forgot to employ the media handler to explain what the colonel meant to say.
It was ever thus - from a previous fictitious war:
It was ever thus - from a previous fictitious war:
The following statements were recorded when a civilian correspondent interviewed a shy, unassuming Air Force Phantom jet fighter pilot. So the correspondent would not misconstrue the pilot's replies, a Wing Information Officer was on hand as a monitor to make certain that the real Air Force story would be told. The Captain was first asked his opinion of the F4C Phantom.
Pilot: "****, it's so friggin manoeuvrable you can fly up your own ass with it."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that he has found the F4C highly manoeuvrable at all altitudes and he considers it an excellent aircraft for all missions assigned."
Reporter: "I suppose Captain you've flown a certain number of missions in North Vietnam. What did you think of the SAMs used by the North Vietnamese?"
Pilot: "Why those bastards couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a base fiddle. We fake the **** out of them. They're no sweat."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that the surface to air missiles around Hanoi pose a serious threat to our air operations and the pilots have a healthy respect for them."
Reporter: "I suppose Captain you've flown missions to the South. What kind of ordinance do you use, and what kinds of targets to you hit?"
Pilot: "Well, I'll tell you, mostly we aim at kicking the **** out of Vietnamese villages, and my favourite ordinance is napalm. Man, that stuff just sucks the air out of their friggin lungs and makes a son of a bitchin' fire."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that air strikes in South Vietnam are often against Viet Cong structures and all air operations are under the positive control of Forward Air Controllers, or FACs. The ordinance employed is conventional 500 and 750 pound bombs and 20 millimetre cannon fire."
Reporter: "I suppose you've spent an R&R in Hong Kong. What were your impressions of the Oriental girls?"
Pilot: "Yeah, I went to Hong Kong. As for those Oriental broads - well, I don't care which way the runway runs, east or west, north or south - a piece of ass is a piece of ass."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that he found the delicately featured Oriental girls fascinating, and was very impressed with their fine manners and thinks their naiveté is most charming."
Reporter: "Tell me Captain, have you flown any missions other than over North and South Vietnam?"
Pilot: "You bet your sweet ass I've flown other missions other than in North and South. We get fragged nearly every day for.. uh, those mothers over there throw everything at you but the friggin kitchen sink. Even the goddamned kids got slingshots."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that he has occasionally been scheduled to fly missions in the extreme western DMZ and he has a healthy respect for the flak in that area." (Translation: the 'extreme west' of the Demilitarized Zone was 'neutral' Laos, where most if not all of that section of the Ho Chi Minh Trail was located and where the Americans did not officially go.)
Reporter: "I understand that no one in the 12th Tactical Fighter Wing has got a MiG yet. What seems to be the problem?"
Pilot: "Why you screwhead! If you knew anything about what you were talking about, the problem is MiGs. If we got fragged by those peckerheads at 7th for those counters in MiG valley you could bet your ass we'd get some of those mothers. Those glory hounds at Ubon get all those frags while we settle for fighting the friggin war. Those mothers at Ubon are sitting on their fat asses killing MiGs and we get stuck with bombing the goddamned cabbage patches."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that each element of the 7th Air Force is responsible for doing their assigned job in the air war. Some units are assigned the job of neutralising enemy air strength but hunting out MiGs, and other elements are assigned bombing missions and interdiction of enemy supply routes."
Reporter: "Of all the targets you've hit in Vietnam, which one was the most satisfying?"
Pilot: "Oh, ****, it was getting fragged for that friggin suspected VC vegetable garden. I dropped napalm in the middle of the friggin pumpkins and cabbage, while my wingman splashed it real good with six of those 750 pound mothers and spread the fire al the way to the friggin beets and carrots."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that the great variety of tactical targets available throughout Vietnam make the F4C the perfect aircraft to provide flexible response."
Reporter: "What do you consider the most difficult target you've struck in North Vietnam?"
Pilot: "The friggin bridges. I must have dropped forty tons of bombs on those swaying bamboo mothers and I ain't hit one of the bastards yet."
WIO: "What the captain means is that interdicting bridges along enemy supply routes is very important and a quite difficult target. The best way to accomplish this task is to crater the approaches to the bridges."
Reporter: "I noticed in touring the base that you have aluminium matting on the taxiways. Would you care to comment on the effectiveness and usefulness in Vietnam?"
Pilot: "You're friggin right I'd like to make a comment. Most of us pilots are well hung, but ****, you don't know what hung is until you get hung up on one of those friggin bumps on that goddamned stuff."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that the aluminium matting is quite satisfactory as a temporary expedient, but requires some finesse in taxying and braking the aircraft."
Reporter: "Did you have an opportunity to meet your wife on leave in Honolulu, and did you enjoy the visit with her?"
Pilot: "Yeah, I met my wife in Honolulu, but I forgot to check the calendar, and so the whole five days were friggin well combat-proof. A completely dry run."
WIO: "What the captain means is that it was wonderful to get together with his wife and learn first hand about the family and how things were at home."
Reporter: "Thank you for your time, Captain."
Pilot: "Screw you, why don't you bastards print the real story instead of all that crap."
WIO: "What the Captain really means is that he enjoyed the opportunity to discuss his Tour with you."
Reporter: "One final question. Could you reduce your impression of the war into a simple phrase or statement, Captain?"
Pilot: "You bet your ass I can. It's a f**ked-up war."
WIO: "What the Captain means is it's a f**ked-up war."
Pilot: "****, it's so friggin manoeuvrable you can fly up your own ass with it."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that he has found the F4C highly manoeuvrable at all altitudes and he considers it an excellent aircraft for all missions assigned."
Reporter: "I suppose Captain you've flown a certain number of missions in North Vietnam. What did you think of the SAMs used by the North Vietnamese?"
Pilot: "Why those bastards couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a base fiddle. We fake the **** out of them. They're no sweat."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that the surface to air missiles around Hanoi pose a serious threat to our air operations and the pilots have a healthy respect for them."
Reporter: "I suppose Captain you've flown missions to the South. What kind of ordinance do you use, and what kinds of targets to you hit?"
Pilot: "Well, I'll tell you, mostly we aim at kicking the **** out of Vietnamese villages, and my favourite ordinance is napalm. Man, that stuff just sucks the air out of their friggin lungs and makes a son of a bitchin' fire."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that air strikes in South Vietnam are often against Viet Cong structures and all air operations are under the positive control of Forward Air Controllers, or FACs. The ordinance employed is conventional 500 and 750 pound bombs and 20 millimetre cannon fire."
Reporter: "I suppose you've spent an R&R in Hong Kong. What were your impressions of the Oriental girls?"
Pilot: "Yeah, I went to Hong Kong. As for those Oriental broads - well, I don't care which way the runway runs, east or west, north or south - a piece of ass is a piece of ass."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that he found the delicately featured Oriental girls fascinating, and was very impressed with their fine manners and thinks their naiveté is most charming."
Reporter: "Tell me Captain, have you flown any missions other than over North and South Vietnam?"
Pilot: "You bet your sweet ass I've flown other missions other than in North and South. We get fragged nearly every day for.. uh, those mothers over there throw everything at you but the friggin kitchen sink. Even the goddamned kids got slingshots."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that he has occasionally been scheduled to fly missions in the extreme western DMZ and he has a healthy respect for the flak in that area." (Translation: the 'extreme west' of the Demilitarized Zone was 'neutral' Laos, where most if not all of that section of the Ho Chi Minh Trail was located and where the Americans did not officially go.)
Reporter: "I understand that no one in the 12th Tactical Fighter Wing has got a MiG yet. What seems to be the problem?"
Pilot: "Why you screwhead! If you knew anything about what you were talking about, the problem is MiGs. If we got fragged by those peckerheads at 7th for those counters in MiG valley you could bet your ass we'd get some of those mothers. Those glory hounds at Ubon get all those frags while we settle for fighting the friggin war. Those mothers at Ubon are sitting on their fat asses killing MiGs and we get stuck with bombing the goddamned cabbage patches."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that each element of the 7th Air Force is responsible for doing their assigned job in the air war. Some units are assigned the job of neutralising enemy air strength but hunting out MiGs, and other elements are assigned bombing missions and interdiction of enemy supply routes."
Reporter: "Of all the targets you've hit in Vietnam, which one was the most satisfying?"
Pilot: "Oh, ****, it was getting fragged for that friggin suspected VC vegetable garden. I dropped napalm in the middle of the friggin pumpkins and cabbage, while my wingman splashed it real good with six of those 750 pound mothers and spread the fire al the way to the friggin beets and carrots."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that the great variety of tactical targets available throughout Vietnam make the F4C the perfect aircraft to provide flexible response."
Reporter: "What do you consider the most difficult target you've struck in North Vietnam?"
Pilot: "The friggin bridges. I must have dropped forty tons of bombs on those swaying bamboo mothers and I ain't hit one of the bastards yet."
WIO: "What the captain means is that interdicting bridges along enemy supply routes is very important and a quite difficult target. The best way to accomplish this task is to crater the approaches to the bridges."
Reporter: "I noticed in touring the base that you have aluminium matting on the taxiways. Would you care to comment on the effectiveness and usefulness in Vietnam?"
Pilot: "You're friggin right I'd like to make a comment. Most of us pilots are well hung, but ****, you don't know what hung is until you get hung up on one of those friggin bumps on that goddamned stuff."
WIO: "What the Captain means is that the aluminium matting is quite satisfactory as a temporary expedient, but requires some finesse in taxying and braking the aircraft."
Reporter: "Did you have an opportunity to meet your wife on leave in Honolulu, and did you enjoy the visit with her?"
Pilot: "Yeah, I met my wife in Honolulu, but I forgot to check the calendar, and so the whole five days were friggin well combat-proof. A completely dry run."
WIO: "What the captain means is that it was wonderful to get together with his wife and learn first hand about the family and how things were at home."
Reporter: "Thank you for your time, Captain."
Pilot: "Screw you, why don't you bastards print the real story instead of all that crap."
WIO: "What the Captain really means is that he enjoyed the opportunity to discuss his Tour with you."
Reporter: "One final question. Could you reduce your impression of the war into a simple phrase or statement, Captain?"
Pilot: "You bet your ass I can. It's a f**ked-up war."
WIO: "What the Captain means is it's a f**ked-up war."
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes
on
45 Posts
Iraq, Feb. 25, 1991 • F/A-18C Hornet • Lt. Col. Jay Stout, VMFA-451
Marine Corps Aviation Centennial: Marine Aviators In Their Own Words | Defense Media Network
Marine Corps Aviation Centennial: Marine Aviators In Their Own Words | Defense Media Network
“...I was an F-4S Phantom II pilot when I converted to the F/A-18A/C Hornet. After the first flight in the Hornet, there was nothing about the Phantom I missed. The Hornet was easier to fly, more modern, with reliable systems, & incredibly maneuverable. It was comfortable. The ability to see almost 360 degrees contrasted tremendously against the Phantom, where you couldn’t look out the canopy and see your own wings. The Hornet was a little slower at the top end but I never flew the Phantom that fast....”
My learned friend Mr Boffin is apparently not familiar with some of the Torygraph's previous Air Correspondents.
Mind you, even the less technologically apt of those gentlemen would never be caught dead blathering on about "Z-axis warfare" and "game shifters" and "paradigm changers" like some of the so-called "independent consultants" who infest the intertubez.
Mind you, even the less technologically apt of those gentlemen would never be caught dead blathering on about "Z-axis warfare" and "game shifters" and "paradigm changers" like some of the so-called "independent consultants" who infest the intertubez.
CM,
Do you think the Luftwaffe made the right choice upgrading the F4? After all they retired them a while after we retired the F3!
Also, was there ever a plan to replace the F4s at Wattisham and Wildenrath with anything (F3s?) before they closed?
Do you think the Luftwaffe made the right choice upgrading the F4? After all they retired them a while after we retired the F3!
Also, was there ever a plan to replace the F4s at Wattisham and Wildenrath with anything (F3s?) before they closed?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes
on
45 Posts
F-35B Hover MCAS Cherry Point May 2014
F-35B Hover MCAS Cherry Point May 2014
Turn your sounds up to ELEVEN!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8VQssvoAhc
Turn your sounds up to ELEVEN!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8VQssvoAhc
