Latest Future Brize 'hiccups'
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose
Why would you "do a couple of circuits" at Bzn when your home base with all your technical expertise, infrastructure etc is no more than 4 minutes away
Cheers,
Mike
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Perhaps if I had typed the above it would have made my point a little clearer
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There's gonna be a list of 'contributory factors' as long as your arm on this one.
I'll pre-empt the BoI and award you 0.1% for every single one.
If you can get the 'main cause' below 98% then I'll keep the punishment down to 3 points on your licence, providing you write a nice article for Air Clues to ensure no-one does it again.
Then I'll book an appointment at the Med Centre to see if my arse has healed up
I'll pre-empt the BoI and award you 0.1% for every single one.
If you can get the 'main cause' below 98% then I'll keep the punishment down to 3 points on your licence, providing you write a nice article for Air Clues to ensure no-one does it again.
Then I'll book an appointment at the Med Centre to see if my arse has healed up
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If it was some sort of technical failure, I expect the RAF would have let us know by now in a fanfare of publicity. The fact that they have not made any press release suggests it is another one of those accidental wheels up landings that "happen from time to time" in the RAF.
More bang for your buck
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I was not trying to be clever. Nor was I suggesting any scenario. Does the fact that the top pic shows the aircraft very close to the end of the runway not make you think?
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The rumour i have just heard is as follows " Aircraft cat 3 damage probably one flight to Cambridge for repair, crew have put their hands up , landed with gear up , warning horn cb pulled during training sortie" Like i said this is only a rumour posted on a rumour site
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Probably a Stupid Question!
OK, so now the crew have manfully held up their hands, would someone explain why it is a crew disables a warning system, designed specifically for providing a warning against this exact cause, by tripping a circuit breaker? The tripping of CB's goes against what is genearlly considered as best practice, unless it is called for specifically as part of a drill.
Just interested to know why more of the scarce, and dwindling resources are being wasted in completely unavoidable accidents.
Just interested to know why more of the scarce, and dwindling resources are being wasted in completely unavoidable accidents.
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Sim asymmetric appch / overshoots - warning horn is linked to throttle position. CB is often pulled when doing the above to stop the horn constantly going on and off since the horn trigger point in throttle travel sits right around the throttle position that corresponds to Zero Torque, used to simulate a feathered prop. Common practice on the fleet.
Is that 'common practice on the fleet' officially endorsed, or a habit that has crept in over the years?
If such a 'special procedure' requires a C/B to have been pulled - and I agree that such a practice is virtually unheard of in modern aircraft these days - surely the pre-landing checklist would have been developed to 'double check' the landing gear position?
After a Hercules fatal accident in the early 1990s, the AOC stated that specialist training should be conducted within a disciplined training environment (i.e. an OCU) rather than through on-the-job training at sqn level. I wonder whether this lesson has now been relearned.
I was also taught years ago that any sensible pilot also conducts his/her own private 'gear, flaps, clearance, toes off' check prior to landing. Shouldn't be necessary, but if you grew up with it on the JP it stayed for life.
If such a 'special procedure' requires a C/B to have been pulled - and I agree that such a practice is virtually unheard of in modern aircraft these days - surely the pre-landing checklist would have been developed to 'double check' the landing gear position?
After a Hercules fatal accident in the early 1990s, the AOC stated that specialist training should be conducted within a disciplined training environment (i.e. an OCU) rather than through on-the-job training at sqn level. I wonder whether this lesson has now been relearned.
I was also taught years ago that any sensible pilot also conducts his/her own private 'gear, flaps, clearance, toes off' check prior to landing. Shouldn't be necessary, but if you grew up with it on the JP it stayed for life.
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Now then now then children!
BEags et al. Lets wait for the SI to convene before we spout off our theories. I think lots more will come out of this rather than a simple 'they forgot the checks'. I'm sure this will be a FLAC/FSOC case study for years to come....
BEags et al. Lets wait for the SI to convene before we spout off our theories. I think lots more will come out of this rather than a simple 'they forgot the checks'. I'm sure this will be a FLAC/FSOC case study for years to come....
Farfrompuken, I don't know to whom you were addressing your comments. But the fact is that it took a fatal accident to learn essential lessons concerning training last time and now a serious incident has occurred, involving a gear-up landing in a valuable asset. More lessons to be re-learned?
Of course it will form part of FS courses in the future, but the root cause needs to be addressed with some urgency if this is not to happen again.
Of course it will form part of FS courses in the future, but the root cause needs to be addressed with some urgency if this is not to happen again.
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BEags, my comments were addressed at you and many others.
Quotes such as
show your lack of knowledge of trg on the C130 fleet and
implies you haven't considered some of the HF elements which stand out like a sore thumb. It's an easy comment to make, to be fair, but demonstrates your lack of thought on the matter.
But I guess posters here are desperate to point out they're the industry expert on C130 incident matters.
The fallout from this will have big implications for the AT fleet at large, I'm sure, but I'll defer to the SI to make their official recommendations.
Quotes such as
he AOC stated that specialist training should be conducted within a disciplined training environment
any sensible pilot also conducts his/her own private 'gear, flaps, clearance, toes off' check prior to landing. Shouldn't be necessary, but if you grew up with it on the JP it stayed for life.
But I guess posters here are desperate to point out they're the industry expert on C130 incident matters.
The fallout from this will have big implications for the AT fleet at large, I'm sure, but I'll defer to the SI to make their official recommendations.
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It is not common practice for the gear warning horn cb to be pulled during MCT sorties - that is complete hoop!
It is only pulled during TAC AT sorties to prevent the horn going off when the throttles are retarded for slow downs, drops etc.....
It is however the first starred item in the pre-landing checks post TAC AT sorties...Gear Warning C/B - Reset
The results of the SI will enlighten everyone but expect far-reaching consequences across the entire C130 fleets in regards to suitabilty and availability of training sorties, not to mention currencies.
It is only pulled during TAC AT sorties to prevent the horn going off when the throttles are retarded for slow downs, drops etc.....
It is however the first starred item in the pre-landing checks post TAC AT sorties...Gear Warning C/B - Reset
The results of the SI will enlighten everyone but expect far-reaching consequences across the entire C130 fleets in regards to suitabilty and availability of training sorties, not to mention currencies.
RAF standards?
This is (or at least strongly appears to be) the third avoidable RAF wheels-up landing in two years or so. Can anybody justify this?
Is it poor training? Has there been a decline in standards in the RAF due to budget cuts?
Or is it poor morale?
Or lack of accountability leading to sloppy application of procedures?
Is something badly wrong in the RAF? Or are these sorts of incidents just considered acceptable by RAF standards?
Is it poor training? Has there been a decline in standards in the RAF due to budget cuts?
Or is it poor morale?
Or lack of accountability leading to sloppy application of procedures?
Is something badly wrong in the RAF? Or are these sorts of incidents just considered acceptable by RAF standards?
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Trim Stab,
You've hit the nail on the head:
Absolutely. The crew were fed up with BOCS, JPA, Future Brize and decided to cheer themselves up by a nice fun wheels up landing.
You deserve a medal
You've hit the nail on the head:
Or is it poor morale?
You deserve a medal
Last edited by Farfrompuken; 11th May 2010 at 07:49. Reason: Trim Stab, perhaps you refer to the captain asking the co to 'cheer up' and the co pilot responds by selecting 'gear up'. If that is the case, you are a genius!
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Trim Stabs - Standards??
Accidents/incidents are the result of many factors lining up concluding with the accident/incident? In this case are these just some of the factors/standards:
Crew training (not just within the sim or bouncing from BCR to BCR) - recent/quality/non-screened?
Pressure of operating adhoc out of Brize? - logistical support (from tranport to a contact number!)
Job security? - K/Sqn draw down/Future Brize move/OSD?
Thoughts?
Head back below para-pit
Crew training (not just within the sim or bouncing from BCR to BCR) - recent/quality/non-screened?
Pressure of operating adhoc out of Brize? - logistical support (from tranport to a contact number!)
Job security? - K/Sqn draw down/Future Brize move/OSD?
Thoughts?
Head back below para-pit
Farfrompuken, after the C-130 fatal accident in Scotland (it stalled during a simulated load drop, if I recall correctly), the Accident Report did comment adversely about 'on-Sqn training' for specialist missions.
The reason I know this is that we used that as primary evidence against the decision being made at the time to disestablish the VC10 OCU. Didn't help though - the bean counters ruled OK...
On the face of it, 3 avoidable wheels-up landings in 2 years is quite ridiculous. I won't comment on Trm Stab's possible reasons, but it is certainly something which must be firmly investigated.
But I will state that training cut backs, in the broad sense, will eventually prove to be more expensive than any perceived cost saving which they originally sought to achieve.
"Dear Dave. Please tell me how much the RAF's 3 wheels-up landings in the last 2 years have cost the taxpayer."
The reason I know this is that we used that as primary evidence against the decision being made at the time to disestablish the VC10 OCU. Didn't help though - the bean counters ruled OK...
On the face of it, 3 avoidable wheels-up landings in 2 years is quite ridiculous. I won't comment on Trm Stab's possible reasons, but it is certainly something which must be firmly investigated.
But I will state that training cut backs, in the broad sense, will eventually prove to be more expensive than any perceived cost saving which they originally sought to achieve.
"Dear Dave. Please tell me how much the RAF's 3 wheels-up landings in the last 2 years have cost the taxpayer."