Flying the Canberra
ps, he flew under a few bridges on the Rhine on his way back to Wildenrath. Interesting thing was he actually entered into the auth sheets the phrase 'Beat up skiers on ski slopes.
This is all true!
This is all true!
Last edited by sharpend; 20th Nov 2012 at 22:33.
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Hi all,
We are currently working on a Canberra aircraft for Microsoft's Flight Simulator X. Are there any ex-Canberra pilots here that would be willing to share their knowledge and experience of the Canberra with us?
Many thanks in advance,
Richard
We are currently working on a Canberra aircraft for Microsoft's Flight Simulator X. Are there any ex-Canberra pilots here that would be willing to share their knowledge and experience of the Canberra with us?
Many thanks in advance,
Richard
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Hi Rich,
I made a huge range of Canberras for FS2004; I'm no real-world pilot but if I can help in any way, give me a shout.
Flying Stations: Payware and Freeware aircraft and scenery for FSX and FS9/FS2004
Steve
I made a huge range of Canberras for FS2004; I'm no real-world pilot but if I can help in any way, give me a shout.
Flying Stations: Payware and Freeware aircraft and scenery for FSX and FS9/FS2004
Steve
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@rich slater
My experience of the Canberra ended in 1978, so I will not be able to produce answers for you. Most of us may be in the same boat. May I however remind you of interesting features that will distinguish your Canberra simulation from that of (say) a Hunter.
I assume that you will be modelling those marks (the B2, the T4 and the B15 that I flew, among others) with a dome canopy. How to give the client pilot the distorted reference given by the curved dashboard and by the optics that varied as you moved your head ?
Are you going to simulate the runway approach when the entire canopy is frosted up and when you can just see enough by peeking through the Clear Vision porthole ?
Will you convey a sense of the unergonomic layout of the cockpit instruments and controls, oblige the client pilot to manage the fuel correctly and give him only a second or two to find the Stores Jettison button before it is too late ?
Do not forget the engine management, particularly the RPM bracket within which the swirl vanes move (5800-6200 ? - mentioned a lot when Icing procedure was discussed earlier in the thread) and the RPM where the bleed valves shut (or embarassingly do not) as the engines accelerate. You will need to build in that charming throbbing sensation by which the offending engine signals that it is no longer at your service.
You might give your client pilot the thrill of a LABS weapon delivery - the half-loop, the roll-off-the-top and the escape dive done entirely on the finely calibrated artificial horizon. In reality it was most satisfying at night, but perhaps you will want to simulate the gyrating landscape.
You know about (and cannot properly simulate) the knee-trembling of asymmetric flight. If you have simulated the Meteor already, you have faced up to the problem in its extreme case. You have the chance to simulate the extreme gyrations that arise when the pilot loses control. All Canberra pilots know what these might be, but maybe all who can describe them at first hand will have to use the Ouija board to do so.
My experience of the Canberra ended in 1978, so I will not be able to produce answers for you. Most of us may be in the same boat. May I however remind you of interesting features that will distinguish your Canberra simulation from that of (say) a Hunter.
I assume that you will be modelling those marks (the B2, the T4 and the B15 that I flew, among others) with a dome canopy. How to give the client pilot the distorted reference given by the curved dashboard and by the optics that varied as you moved your head ?
Are you going to simulate the runway approach when the entire canopy is frosted up and when you can just see enough by peeking through the Clear Vision porthole ?
Will you convey a sense of the unergonomic layout of the cockpit instruments and controls, oblige the client pilot to manage the fuel correctly and give him only a second or two to find the Stores Jettison button before it is too late ?
Do not forget the engine management, particularly the RPM bracket within which the swirl vanes move (5800-6200 ? - mentioned a lot when Icing procedure was discussed earlier in the thread) and the RPM where the bleed valves shut (or embarassingly do not) as the engines accelerate. You will need to build in that charming throbbing sensation by which the offending engine signals that it is no longer at your service.
You might give your client pilot the thrill of a LABS weapon delivery - the half-loop, the roll-off-the-top and the escape dive done entirely on the finely calibrated artificial horizon. In reality it was most satisfying at night, but perhaps you will want to simulate the gyrating landscape.
You know about (and cannot properly simulate) the knee-trembling of asymmetric flight. If you have simulated the Meteor already, you have faced up to the problem in its extreme case. You have the chance to simulate the extreme gyrations that arise when the pilot loses control. All Canberra pilots know what these might be, but maybe all who can describe them at first hand will have to use the Ouija board to do so.
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Hi chaps,
Thanks so far for the replies.
Joe, if you're able to spare some time to answer a few emails for me on some of the general characteristics of flying the Canberra then I'd be very grateful. I'll drop you a message once I get to the bits I need to run past an actual pilot.
@rlsbutler Great post!
We will be doing the PR9 model. We had a day down at Kemble looking over and photographing the bird they are getting ready to fly again down there (if anyone would like some of the hundreds of pictures I took of the aircraft down there then feel free to get in touch).
I love the comment about asymmetric flight - a perfect example of how working purely from the official pilot's notes can be foolhardy. According to the official write up the aircraft should handle perfectly fine when flying on one engine. Reports from the pilots that did make it home speak of terror and not being able to walk for a week due to the effort required to hold the aircraft straight using the rudder.
Thanks so far for the replies.
Joe, if you're able to spare some time to answer a few emails for me on some of the general characteristics of flying the Canberra then I'd be very grateful. I'll drop you a message once I get to the bits I need to run past an actual pilot.
@rlsbutler Great post!
We will be doing the PR9 model. We had a day down at Kemble looking over and photographing the bird they are getting ready to fly again down there (if anyone would like some of the hundreds of pictures I took of the aircraft down there then feel free to get in touch).
I love the comment about asymmetric flight - a perfect example of how working purely from the official pilot's notes can be foolhardy. According to the official write up the aircraft should handle perfectly fine when flying on one engine. Reports from the pilots that did make it home speak of terror and not being able to walk for a week due to the effort required to hold the aircraft straight using the rudder.
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@rich slater
The official write-up was right virtually all of the time (as ever).
I made Her Majesty pay heavily to plant the lessons of asymmetric flight in my poor brain - you can read the gist in another post elsewhere in PPRuNe and not find it very instructive. Through the years I gave myself a lot of asymmetric experience specifically to make sure that I could deal with a real problem. Single-engine cruise, flame-outs in Cu-Nims, N∕√T airtests, at least one real engine-ruined landing (there you are – I have might have had more that I do not now remember) – all no problem, but with just a frisson of excitement. We the unsung majority really understood the forces involved and we were able to depend on the good old Avon relighting on request.
The first rule was to keep the speed up. You did not need a second rule, but that might have been to Trim. In the worst case – heavy take-off from a short runway, where you will not stop inside the airfield and you might not fly away – you have two options: either (1) give up and shut the live engine or (2) lower the nose (for speed) and trim (reducing power on the live engine if you cannot hold the yaw otherwise).
Asymmetric approaches were properly covered by your official write-up. Fatal cock-ups would be because the pilot had not truly understood what he was committing to. I never had to consider such an approach in engine icing conditions, but I expect having a plan and sticking to it would have made the difference then as always.
Which brings us to the trembling knee. In truth this problem only arose when you were low and slow. Trim was the complete answer, as soon as you had done all the other things dictated by the emergency.
The Meteor offered more of a problem than the Canberra – the rudder forces were greater and the trim could never be wound on fast enough. For me, with long legs (but I do not see why this should not be true for every pilot other than Douglas Bader), the answer here was to have adjusted the pedals and straps appropriately, and to straighten the leg and to lock it “over centre” at the knee as soon as Big Rudder was required. Then trim could be left until the rest of the problem was dealt with.
My early accident happened because my poor, amiable, instructor did not appreciate how stupid I was. Training (by self and others) is the core of my story. Which brings me to Bassingbourne in early 1962, just airborne in a T4 with Flt Lt John Stanley in the right hand seat – a sort of Final Exam in asymmetrics. I still cannot work out what he was going to do if one of his students got it wrong. Perhaps there is an entire PPRuNe thread dealing with that master of this particular topic.
The official write-up was right virtually all of the time (as ever).
I made Her Majesty pay heavily to plant the lessons of asymmetric flight in my poor brain - you can read the gist in another post elsewhere in PPRuNe and not find it very instructive. Through the years I gave myself a lot of asymmetric experience specifically to make sure that I could deal with a real problem. Single-engine cruise, flame-outs in Cu-Nims, N∕√T airtests, at least one real engine-ruined landing (there you are – I have might have had more that I do not now remember) – all no problem, but with just a frisson of excitement. We the unsung majority really understood the forces involved and we were able to depend on the good old Avon relighting on request.
The first rule was to keep the speed up. You did not need a second rule, but that might have been to Trim. In the worst case – heavy take-off from a short runway, where you will not stop inside the airfield and you might not fly away – you have two options: either (1) give up and shut the live engine or (2) lower the nose (for speed) and trim (reducing power on the live engine if you cannot hold the yaw otherwise).
Asymmetric approaches were properly covered by your official write-up. Fatal cock-ups would be because the pilot had not truly understood what he was committing to. I never had to consider such an approach in engine icing conditions, but I expect having a plan and sticking to it would have made the difference then as always.
Which brings us to the trembling knee. In truth this problem only arose when you were low and slow. Trim was the complete answer, as soon as you had done all the other things dictated by the emergency.
The Meteor offered more of a problem than the Canberra – the rudder forces were greater and the trim could never be wound on fast enough. For me, with long legs (but I do not see why this should not be true for every pilot other than Douglas Bader), the answer here was to have adjusted the pedals and straps appropriately, and to straighten the leg and to lock it “over centre” at the knee as soon as Big Rudder was required. Then trim could be left until the rest of the problem was dealt with.
My early accident happened because my poor, amiable, instructor did not appreciate how stupid I was. Training (by self and others) is the core of my story. Which brings me to Bassingbourne in early 1962, just airborne in a T4 with Flt Lt John Stanley in the right hand seat – a sort of Final Exam in asymmetrics. I still cannot work out what he was going to do if one of his students got it wrong. Perhaps there is an entire PPRuNe thread dealing with that master of this particular topic.
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Wot fly on 1 engine...... me
All the above comments are so true but need a bit of filling up.
The canberra rudder system involved a large spring which acted to give a seeming feel against airspeed. The spring consisted of a tube which could twist a bit. To shorten the tube it was folded inside itself to create a telescope effect although it was one piece. When it got a bit tired you could push the pedal but all you did was compress the spring not move the rudder. Rudder/fin stalling at high angles and low airspeed could occur especially if yawing/rolling created a localised airflow disturbance. I lost one big time on an airtest with pete somerfield in the back, being ham fisted really. I was the maint TP at the 23mu, aldergrove, and we tried hard to make sure the thing was within limits, mostly it worked.
The official line was always "if you fly it correctly you will be ok", people didn't and about a crew a year died for twenty years. In the end a new drill was agreed which involved fly at safety speed to decision point then close the live throttle and put the flap down. It worked and the chop rate pretty much stopped except for the odd few. Last one I think was Paddy Thompson, Mr Canberra, at Cyprus right at the end, I could be wrong cos it was a long time ago.
The rule was once decision made aircraft must be landed preferably on the runway if possible with the gear down. I had the problem on a roller landi ng at Leconfield and my instructors voice fron Cottesmore, Clive Hall. great bloke, came back to me.... "land the B........" 2 out of 3 isn't bad.
The 9 was different having hydraulic controls. I flew them on39SQN and later the SC 9 XH132 at RAE bedford. Always treated it with great respect not fear. We got airborne with 85%, about half thrust, then accelerated to 200 ish then climb power, went like an angel
The canberra rudder system involved a large spring which acted to give a seeming feel against airspeed. The spring consisted of a tube which could twist a bit. To shorten the tube it was folded inside itself to create a telescope effect although it was one piece. When it got a bit tired you could push the pedal but all you did was compress the spring not move the rudder. Rudder/fin stalling at high angles and low airspeed could occur especially if yawing/rolling created a localised airflow disturbance. I lost one big time on an airtest with pete somerfield in the back, being ham fisted really. I was the maint TP at the 23mu, aldergrove, and we tried hard to make sure the thing was within limits, mostly it worked.
The official line was always "if you fly it correctly you will be ok", people didn't and about a crew a year died for twenty years. In the end a new drill was agreed which involved fly at safety speed to decision point then close the live throttle and put the flap down. It worked and the chop rate pretty much stopped except for the odd few. Last one I think was Paddy Thompson, Mr Canberra, at Cyprus right at the end, I could be wrong cos it was a long time ago.
The rule was once decision made aircraft must be landed preferably on the runway if possible with the gear down. I had the problem on a roller landi ng at Leconfield and my instructors voice fron Cottesmore, Clive Hall. great bloke, came back to me.... "land the B........" 2 out of 3 isn't bad.
The 9 was different having hydraulic controls. I flew them on39SQN and later the SC 9 XH132 at RAE bedford. Always treated it with great respect not fear. We got airborne with 85%, about half thrust, then accelerated to 200 ish then climb power, went like an angel
Last edited by Tinribs; 27th Mar 2013 at 15:39.
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@tinribs
Lots of good experience. I had forgotten about the torque-tubes. I assume that the risk was covered by a rule I vaguely remember: not to allow more than a ball’s width of slip.
My last flying was out of Llanbedr, which was part of the RAE empire so we could fly the Canberra solo if we wished; a bit strange, like going to the cinema on your own. The station’s pilots would nav for each other. One of our roles was to go out into the North Atlantic to fire the supersonic Stiletto at F4s under the control of the radar on Benbecula. I think the pilot could have fired the missile himself and the nav task was not onerous - but each of us was glad of a bit of company, at least on the outbound leg.
You thought Paddy Thompson’s was the last asymmetric accident. That was in 1980 and seems not to have been practice asymmetric on the approach but a catastrophic engine failure on takeoff. I never heard the details, but I continue to nurse the presumption that Paddy would have handled it if it could have been handled.
I have done a little sweep of Google and found two later cases: (1) T4 WJ877 at Wyton in March 1991 – an apparently reckless and disastrous practice engine failure on takeoff and (2) T4 WJ866 at Marham in September 2004 - the classic old-school approach cock-up that you had in mind.
R
Lots of good experience. I had forgotten about the torque-tubes. I assume that the risk was covered by a rule I vaguely remember: not to allow more than a ball’s width of slip.
My last flying was out of Llanbedr, which was part of the RAE empire so we could fly the Canberra solo if we wished; a bit strange, like going to the cinema on your own. The station’s pilots would nav for each other. One of our roles was to go out into the North Atlantic to fire the supersonic Stiletto at F4s under the control of the radar on Benbecula. I think the pilot could have fired the missile himself and the nav task was not onerous - but each of us was glad of a bit of company, at least on the outbound leg.
You thought Paddy Thompson’s was the last asymmetric accident. That was in 1980 and seems not to have been practice asymmetric on the approach but a catastrophic engine failure on takeoff. I never heard the details, but I continue to nurse the presumption that Paddy would have handled it if it could have been handled.
I have done a little sweep of Google and found two later cases: (1) T4 WJ877 at Wyton in March 1991 – an apparently reckless and disastrous practice engine failure on takeoff and (2) T4 WJ866 at Marham in September 2004 - the classic old-school approach cock-up that you had in mind.
R
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Small world - the Just Flight office where I'm based is about a half-mile from where WJ877 came down in Huntingdon. My Grandmother was one of the witnesses entered into the record.
I don't suppose any of you ex-Canberra chaps still have your old startup/shutdown checklists, or know of anyone who does have a copy?
Thanks
I don't suppose any of you ex-Canberra chaps still have your old startup/shutdown checklists, or know of anyone who does have a copy?
Thanks
Risbutler, you might like to reconsider your comment on the 2004 crash.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ham-crash.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ham-crash.html
Last edited by alwayslookingup; 28th Mar 2013 at 14:08.
Risbutler : T4 WJ877 at Wyton in March 1991 – an apparently reckless and disastrous practice engine failure on takeoff - just re-read the Accident Summary - disastrous, obviously: can see nothing about "reckless" though, so suggest you might make an amendment to your post
Rich, I still have my PR7 Pilot's Notes and, (somewhere fairly close, the T4 FRC's) PM me and I will dig them out and send a scanned copy if you wish.
Bill
Bill
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@alwayslookingup and @wander00
Always ready to be corrected, I was reporting to Rich Slater after a Google rummage to find the Wolverhampton and at least one other summary site. My comments may be unjustified in truth but derived from comments on those sites.
I shall take a bit of time to find out for myself what you are telling me. I shall post again in a few days.
Always ready to be corrected, I was reporting to Rich Slater after a Google rummage to find the Wolverhampton and at least one other summary site. My comments may be unjustified in truth but derived from comments on those sites.
I shall take a bit of time to find out for myself what you are telling me. I shall post again in a few days.
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You may be interested to read the local St Ives town crier. Four articles about Wyton. Alarmist on front page about the base closing! No its just the airfield. the base is growing with the influx of Geospatial Fusion spooks and the Really Large Corps. The Air Ambulance have been consulted! then on another page Steve Thornber celebrates the 100 year old Sox Socket - Good show that man. Sadest of all is the need for contractors to scrub up the PR9 gate gurd. In years past the Girls Venture Corps looked after the PR7 or was it the Ex 51 B6? this would have made a smashing project for the local Air Cadets. Along the line as the Scouts who adopted the Comet beside the old POL huts. Yes I served at Wyton on and off from 81 to 2011 and recall all these things. particularly sad to revive the memories of the Assymetric crashes. My wife baby sat at the house on the Oxmoor only days before. I remember Reg comming to congratulate us when we swapped Nimrods one day. A week later he was gone. Saddest of all was the loss of the two other guys.
Just months before I retired I was up at Wyton picking up MT in the early hours. The place was eiry. All I could hear in the silence was the drone of Lancasters and Mosquitoes circling overhead before heading off to their targets for the night.
Perhaps the RAF Wyton PR machine should take over editorial responsibility for the RAF News.
Just months before I retired I was up at Wyton picking up MT in the early hours. The place was eiry. All I could hear in the silence was the drone of Lancasters and Mosquitoes circling overhead before heading off to their targets for the night.
Perhaps the RAF Wyton PR machine should take over editorial responsibility for the RAF News.
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Wyton Prangs
I think the Oxmoor crash had my mate Laurie Davies in the back, especially annoying as he had been with me at Leconfield years before in a similar event which we survived because of Clive Halls efforts to bash "loss of control on one engine into me"
The aircraft must be landed, preferably on the runway if possible with the gear down. We made it that day, two out of three isn't bad. Thanks Clive
Laurie's body was on fire in the gutter and news photgrapher called Geoff Garret published phots in the a daily and later in the Am Phot. Never to be forgiven
The aircraft must be landed, preferably on the runway if possible with the gear down. We made it that day, two out of three isn't bad. Thanks Clive
Laurie's body was on fire in the gutter and news photgrapher called Geoff Garret published phots in the a daily and later in the Am Phot. Never to be forgiven
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Reg was a flight commander when I was on 7 Sqn at St Mawgan. A good man.
On another note, I only once was faced with landing on only one engine after an air test when I couldn't get a relight. The adrenalin was flowing well and it was probably the best, most accurate approach I ever made. I had to be towed in because it was impossible to turn against the good engine on the ground, at least it gave me time to wipe my forehead.
On another note, I only once was faced with landing on only one engine after an air test when I couldn't get a relight. The adrenalin was flowing well and it was probably the best, most accurate approach I ever made. I had to be towed in because it was impossible to turn against the good engine on the ground, at least it gave me time to wipe my forehead.
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I have fond memories of 7 Squadron at St.Mawgan. As a "civvie" and a mere teenager, I got my first passenger ride in a jet courtesy of 7 Sqn (in WJ715). We went on a pretty standard flight to Plymouth to act as a silent target for the gunners but what a great experience for a youngster.
I remember the mock attack displays that were mentioned earlier in this thread. For many years St.Mawgan's air show included a fly-by performed by a Nimrod and four Canberras in box formation. They usually performed their mock airfield attack during the show and it was a delight to see Canberras being thrown around with a bit of flair.
I spent many days watching the aircraft come and go at St.Mawgan. Aside from the main fleet of TT18s, the T4 fleet included WJ861and WT483, both of which seemed to be flying around the circuit almost every day. However I was particularly interested in the two T19s (WH904 and WH903) that were with 7 Squadron for a few years until around 1976. Both wore the standard light grey paint scheme with dayglow orange trim, and with their big, black radomes they always looked very smart.
WH903 was eventually scrapped (the nose survives) but WH904 went to the Newark AIr Museum. Oddly, the museum staff fitted tip tanks to the aircraft even though the T19 never carried them (apart from the sole Swedish example). I asked NAM about this and somebody claimed that the aircraft was collected from Cambridge with tanks fitted, but this is nonsense - I'm old enough to remember!
Sadly, they also painted over the lovely 7 Squadron circle emblem on the tail, and applied 85 Squadron markings. For many years you could still see the 7 Sqn emblem and tail code under the grey paint, if you caught the aircraft against sunlight at the right angle.
I've tried time and time again to find a photo of WH904 or WH903 wearing 7 Squadron's markings, but no such pictures seem to have survived. Anyone ever seen one anywhere?
I remember the mock attack displays that were mentioned earlier in this thread. For many years St.Mawgan's air show included a fly-by performed by a Nimrod and four Canberras in box formation. They usually performed their mock airfield attack during the show and it was a delight to see Canberras being thrown around with a bit of flair.
I spent many days watching the aircraft come and go at St.Mawgan. Aside from the main fleet of TT18s, the T4 fleet included WJ861and WT483, both of which seemed to be flying around the circuit almost every day. However I was particularly interested in the two T19s (WH904 and WH903) that were with 7 Squadron for a few years until around 1976. Both wore the standard light grey paint scheme with dayglow orange trim, and with their big, black radomes they always looked very smart.
WH903 was eventually scrapped (the nose survives) but WH904 went to the Newark AIr Museum. Oddly, the museum staff fitted tip tanks to the aircraft even though the T19 never carried them (apart from the sole Swedish example). I asked NAM about this and somebody claimed that the aircraft was collected from Cambridge with tanks fitted, but this is nonsense - I'm old enough to remember!
Sadly, they also painted over the lovely 7 Squadron circle emblem on the tail, and applied 85 Squadron markings. For many years you could still see the 7 Sqn emblem and tail code under the grey paint, if you caught the aircraft against sunlight at the right angle.
I've tried time and time again to find a photo of WH904 or WH903 wearing 7 Squadron's markings, but no such pictures seem to have survived. Anyone ever seen one anywhere?
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Hello, can someone confirm how many starter cartridges the B2 had per engine?
Also are there any good picures demonstrating it being fitted or used on a B2, I have tried Google but didn't see what I was after.
Thanks
Also are there any good picures demonstrating it being fitted or used on a B2, I have tried Google but didn't see what I was after.
Thanks