kevmusic

Thought I'd come to your fine upstanding military selves for some of this.

Ok, he has absolutely no great ambitions of any sort. He's currently finishing his A-levels with a view to going to a decent uni to study English. It's by no means a done deal and much depends on results day. Trouble is, I'm not sure he really has enough interest in the subject to pursue it at university level, let alone get there. He has arrived at this point through school and peer inertia and spent some time wondering what he wanted to study before settling on English quite late in the day. He's a bright lad, with a string of As and Bs at GCSE and AS level but outside the current, belated study effort, his life is driven only by football, girls and beer. He's very popular, with loads of friends and female admirers; and that's the extent of his interests. He doesn't really apply himself in depth for sustained periods. I now wonder if he's really a 'university' person, and whether an alternative path might be pushed under his nose.

So, here I am. He was in the RAF section of the CCF at school and loved the aerobatic sorties with AEF; though he hated the bull. Nevertheless I'm wondering whether a career in the services mightn't be a bad idea for him, in order that different tasks and interests would perforce be undertaken by him, and that some kind of specialisation in life might result. I'm aware, through this site, of the growing state of low morale within the RAF, but I'm still tempted to think of the services in general as a good prospect for him.

I've tried to give as much detail as I can to generate opinion.

Thanks,
Kev

Zithro

The growing state of low morale that you mention appears much amplified in this site because that is the nature of the site. There is still a great deal of fun to be had in the RAF, and whilst there are many aspects that cause people to despair, morale on ops in particular, in my recent experiences is generally high - I've no doubt that there will be influx of messages contradicting this!

My advice would be that the RAF is still a good employer and I would be happy if my children expressed a wish to sign up.

Widger

Tell him to get on his bike and go and travel around the world for a year. He will come back wiser and more aware of what he needs to do.

I did at first think of saying that he sounded like an ideal candidate for the RAF Police but he is obviously too bright!




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Joke............................joke.......................j oke alright.....oh my god, what are those white vans doing outside!

airborne_artist

If he's going to make it through to the front-line he really needs to want it. Right now he sounds like a party animal, without a care, which is fine, but it won't get him far in any of the Armed Services on its own.

The competition to get an aircrew place, and the level of attainment required once in is very high, so unless he really wants it he'll get found out by the system.

Fg Off Max Stout

Perfect uni student material, as long as he does a basket-weaving degree, not applied maths, or particle physics or anything like that. After three years he may have some ideas of his own!

To be serious, though, he probably won't make it far in the forces if he hates bull and lacks self motivation. Basic training and initial officer training is a bit of a test of dedication.

Wensleydale

More than 30 years ago I too wondered whether to join up after a most enjoyable time in CCF (Flying Scholorship, IACE etc). I solved the conundrum by joining the University Air Squadron at Uni to see what life as aircrew would be like. It worked for me, and I joined up after University. In effect, I covered both bases. I assume that RAFR Cadet Pilot is still available (??) if not then I am sure that you will be advised on this forum together with lots of abuse for me, but my advice is - go to Uni - get the degree - try out the UAS to see what its like...

Albert Driver

It's often said:

If you know what you want to do - go do it.
If not - go to university. The debt mountain will do the motivation.


That makes him the "university person" you maybe don't want him to be, but probably not the RAF type you'd like him to be.

We only hatch 'em, we don't program 'em.

He'll make it...

.... his way!

Pontius Navigator

Mike Jenvey has it about right.

Motivation is the key. If he can be enervated sufficiently to prepare for OASC and has all the other aptitudes required then he might get in. Then will come the shock.

The first few months of training will be pure bull. He will spend probably a third of the day cleaning, bulling then cleaning again. He will also have a full day from early morning to late at night. Sleep will be a very poor last bet.

Part of the process is to test his personality under adverse conditions. He will have to become a dependable team player. Even the shortest training will take almost 2 years to become operational or effective.

I suspect from what you have written that he needs more time. University might well be the better route.

Jimmy Macintosh

As has been said a lot here already, without the motivation and dedication it is seriously doubtful he'll make aircrew, the competition is just too stiff for a "I like flying" to get through. They want an officer first, pilot second.

If he's not motivated at Uni, I doubt he'll get through, at least with a degree that will be worth having, a third class degree does more harm than not having one, especially when trying to get the first job, after that it doesn't matter as much.

One thing I remember from one of my bosses, he said he won't even look at a CV if the person dropped out of Uni. It shows a lack of staying power. I was very interested in my subject of study and after two years I was ready to get out. Thankfully I got an industrial placement that gave me a year break before I finished respectfully enough.

I don't know what options there are around your area, but travelling/working in a gap year could possibly help him find out more about himself.

kevmusic

Hmmm........all a bit depressing, though I thank you guys for taking the time to give such thoughtful replies. I fully understand he might not have what it takes to become a successful officer entrant and I was wondering whether it might be worth his while going in as airman, rating, or whatever and learning a trade from the ground up.

Must admit, some of you seem to have the measure of him to quite an eerie extent!

sapco2

kevmusic,

That's an interesting question you've raised. My son is in pretty much the same boat as your's. He's 18 tomorrow, just about to finish his A levels and wants to join the Royal Air Force; not as an officer but as a rank in the RAF regiment.

His A level subjects are Maths, Physics & German and he's got 9 grade A & B GCSEs plus 6 BTech certificates via the Air Training Corps. As far as I can tell he seems chilled about achieving good A level results but is totally dismissive of going to university or applying for officer selection.

He reckons some regular officers he's spoken to advocate him joining as a rank with the view to applying to become an officer in 3 years. He likes that idea and reckons it will help him to get to know the ropes from both ends.

I always promised not to interfere with his career choice and I won't but I would certainly welcome some feedback from those of you in the know; is the advice he's taking correct, and is it logical?

I have some personal reservations about this career advice!

Sven Sixtoo

My (cynical) view is that it is a great deal easier to negotiate from outside the Service than from inside.

So decide what one will accept and draw the line there. Do not accept A in the plan of changing to B later.

Sven

Floater AAC

First, it's good to see he has expressed an interest in the RAF Regt. This at least shows he has thought about things.
Second appears to be a lack of direction, maybe caused by immaturity. Perhaps if he was to experience a period of time trying to make ends meet he might become interested in a career. The armed forces is not the place to be if you are not commited (especially in the current climate). I have made the descision to eject after 15+ years for that very reason.
Given time he may well make the call to go for it.

scottyhs

Sapco2. I can't exactly say ive got alot of experience but here's my 2-penneth. I think i may be in the same boat as your son. Im 18, just finishing my A levels and joining the air force in Sept, well thats at least when i start IOT. The one thing i would say is that your lad will have to really want to do the job, Going through OASC with alot of people who were alot older then me made me think about my career choice and it reinforced my choices in life. I've gone in DE as i didnt think the uni option was for me either....... Anyways i wish him all the best, want anything else just give me a PM!

Chugalug2

sapco2, my twopenneth is in old money, so worth little, but for what it's worth I would endorse Sven Sixto's point. For my sins the Boss gave me the job of reviewing SNCOs on the squadron, and putting forward those that were up for trying for a commission and seemed to be up to a standard where they might succeed. Some were excellent guys, but the success rate was very dispiriting. It seemed to me that the RAF rationale was that if such a candidate went forward for Officer Training, he might or might not succeed, either way the RAF would be short of an experienced and competent SNCO, requiring time and money to replace. Cheaper and safer to select most candidates from outside the service. If your lad wants to try for a commission, go for it. If he wants a non commissioned career go for it, but unless things have changed entirely (and this forum often suggests they have!) having your cake and eating it is not on the menu!

ProfessionalStudent

15 years in, man and boy.

No regrets whatsoever.

Low morale? Yep.

Recommend it? Yep.

Great career? Nope.

Great job? Yep.

Try to encourage him down the pilot route. He'll get paid to do something people have to pay to do.

There is good advice here. From personal experience, it is very important to aim as high as possible and accept you may fall short. NEVER aim low. Change from within is difficult and at best a lottery. Joining the ranks and rising to Chief of the Air Staff is a romantic pipe dream I'm afraid.

Good luck to you and your son whatever the outcome.

sapco2

Thanks everyone,

I really appreciate your prompt responses and hopefully the information should prove useful in answering some of kevmusic's questions too.

Your advice seems pretty unanimous, and what you're saying ties in with what I'm being told by colleagues who are ex-military.

Mike Jenvey, you said the RAF Regt is a very specialist career! Could you possibly expand on that? I'm intrigued because my son's ambitions changed from wanting to be an officer/pilot after he'd spent a week with the regiment a few months ago.

Whatever his experience there, it must have been pretty intoxicating!

seafuryfan

I would advise your son to aim as high as he possibly can. This business about joining the ranks and working your way up is a non-starter in my book. The bull**** you have to go through re-doing OASC (if you're already NCA), and then going again, and again, and again, is worse than pulling teeth for all concerned. And there's no doubt about it, without a commission you don't really have a voice. So, aim for officer, simple as that.

Having said that, he will be worked hard as the RAF want their moneys-worth and will expect tons of loyalty (e.g long working hours) and a shed-load of responsibility. Social life can be as busy as he wants it to be, and he'll be going to some mess functions even if he's not in the mood - it's part of the job.

If he's a flier, he'll have a few years in training 'till he's on a sqn, so plenty of time to find his feet. From what I've heard there is good fun to be had while holding in between courses.

And yes, I did go round the OASC merry-go round a couple of times before I jumped off - as it turned out, it was the right decision. But I still think it's the way to go if you want that sort of life.

Pontius Navigator

sapco2,

let me comment on your post and several below.

A good friend who is a sqn ldr has a privately educatd son who has now reached the rank of cpl and serves as a medic with the Green Jackets. Although pressed to get a commission by his officers he is content with his lot. His dad is content too.

Another sqn ldr's son, last I heard, had reached the rank of sgt in the Army. Dad was quite content for his son's choice of career.

Sven Sixtoo said and that is my feeling too. As a civilian you deal with the professional recruiters from day One.

I know two other ex-rankers in the RAF one ex-regiment, he only got a commission a year or so after he reached cpl. Another after he reached sgt. OTOH I was responsible for an SAC starting the commissioning route and I am sad to say becoming the first British female fatality in Iraq.

It can work but it is your son's life.

Then Mike Jenvey said:

I have met several airwomen who have been directed to the ranks when they had the qualifications for a commission. Those same professional recruiters do have boxes to fill.

Not a gunner per se but a regiment officer I know re-trained as a navigator and last I heard had made air commodore in less that 20 years.

We have talked about commissioning but not the job. We have talked about airman and not the job except for regiment.

Officers come in many flavours; airmen come in more flavours. Before chosing either you need to look at all the roles. Think also of a later life. Pilot is obvious. Hotel Management is less so but a smart and competent airman steward can rise fairly quickly, become a mess manager, and eventually consider a job in hotel management. I mention only two extremes.

Regiment. My daughter served in the Regiment Auxilliaries for 3 years, loved every minute of it. Loved driving a Bradley AFV, firing mortars and GPMG etc. Taught by the SAS - happiness is a bit of sacking, chicken wire and a poly bag. She married one. He was jump qualified. The regiment is not a line regiment and can operate right at the front of the battle area, or beyond, to secure a landing ground or miles to the rear where the ground is porous and enemy forces can be operating with near impunity ie their role is counter special forces. Exhilarating, you bet. In peace, OTOH, is could be deadly boring.

Saintsman

At 17 and he doesn't know what he wants to do. That seems pretty typical these days.

The trouble is, is that he has had an easy life. He's probably been spoilt and been given every thing he wanted. That is no critisism (my kids are the same) but he doesn't realise what things cost and what it takes to get the things he has.

Your best option is to sit down with him and work out a few figures. Point out that if he wants a place of his own (to bring all these girlies back to) its going to cost X to rent or buy. He will want a car soon. That will cost Y.

Then work out how much he will have to earn in order to get these things. Once you have done that you can look in the job paper and see what companies and what jobs are paying. That may give him an idea of what to aim for. You can't tell him what to do, but with some careful guidance he will probably come to a decission himself