A stunning tribute to you all, you should all watch this..
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A stunning tribute to you all, you should all watch this..
It echo's the feelings of a lot of people, both Ex Forces and Civilian for the work you do, the narration is the one which Bats has posted in the remembrance thread......
YouTube - The Average British Soldier
God Bless
Tony
YouTube - The Average British Soldier
God Bless
Tony
Last edited by NutLoose; 4th Nov 2009 at 00:54.
Very moving, puts it all in perspective really.
Five British soldiers shot dead by rogue Afghan policeman
One weeps for them and their families.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Good video, however the only niggle I have with it is the 'slide' of the poppy with the cross as its shadow.
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SS
I am not religious in any way, shape or form, but if you look at nearly all of the images of World War 1 cemeteries you will find lots of the things that you find 'niggles' you. These crosses represent the lives of our brave men lost in that particular conflict. Why oh why do you have to degenerate this thread into the PC quagmire you obviously inhabit.
TBT, in disgust
I am not religious in any way, shape or form, but if you look at nearly all of the images of World War 1 cemeteries you will find lots of the things that you find 'niggles' you. These crosses represent the lives of our brave men lost in that particular conflict. Why oh why do you have to degenerate this thread into the PC quagmire you obviously inhabit.
TBT, in disgust
SisloeSid has valid point and it is nothing to do with PC. The poppy as a symbol for the fallen should not be hijacked by one religious creed, in this case Christianity. The poppy represents all those who fell, regardless of nationality, colour or creed.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
TBT;
Nothing niggled me when I took this picture at Tyne Cot;
Nothing niggled me when I took the Sid-lings to the Menin Gate;
Nothing niggled me last year when my brother, little Sid and I went to the grave of our Great Uncle. At 01:30, the approximate time he fell in the attack on Pommerieul village, I placed a wreath on the memorial and little Sid placed a poppy cross on his grave, after walking the route of the advance.
According to the book in front of me, 'Courage Remembered',
"Religious Emblem - The Christian Cross, Jewish Star of David etc which is inscribed on a marker at the request of the next of kin. Equally, the Commission abides by the next of kins request for no emblem. In the event that there is no contact with the next of kin, a religious emblem is inscribed."
As for the memorial;
"the swords symbolism is open to many interpretations. Some regard the sword itself, with its hilt, as being the Cross, and the stonework to be only a frame."
Maybe the Memorial Cross represents the faith of the majority of the dead and the sword represents the military character of the cemetery.
What niggles me is that you think the cross represents the fallen, when it is in fact the Poppy.
if you look at nearly all of the images of World War 1 cemeteries you will find lots of the things that you find 'niggles' you. These crosses represent the lives of our brave men lost in that particular conflict.
Nothing niggled me when I took this picture at Tyne Cot;
Nothing niggled me when I took the Sid-lings to the Menin Gate;
Nothing niggled me last year when my brother, little Sid and I went to the grave of our Great Uncle. At 01:30, the approximate time he fell in the attack on Pommerieul village, I placed a wreath on the memorial and little Sid placed a poppy cross on his grave, after walking the route of the advance.
According to the book in front of me, 'Courage Remembered',
"Religious Emblem - The Christian Cross, Jewish Star of David etc which is inscribed on a marker at the request of the next of kin. Equally, the Commission abides by the next of kins request for no emblem. In the event that there is no contact with the next of kin, a religious emblem is inscribed."
As for the memorial;
"the swords symbolism is open to many interpretations. Some regard the sword itself, with its hilt, as being the Cross, and the stonework to be only a frame."
Maybe the Memorial Cross represents the faith of the majority of the dead and the sword represents the military character of the cemetery.
What niggles me is that you think the cross represents the fallen, when it is in fact the Poppy.
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Thank you TBT,
If you don't mind, I will answer you publicly. I can understand why you wanted to send me a PM, going on Question Time soon are you!
My first post was nothing to do with being a PC statement, purely pointing out that the Poppy has no religious ties.
Rather than make this a long post, and doubt your military history knowledge, may I point out to you (only because it was you who first mentioned, 'World War 1 cemeteries') that the title 'Commonwealth War Graves Commission' begins with the word....Commonwealth.
If you think my first post gives ammunition to religious radicals....what do you think a Poppy with a cross as its shadow represents!
Talk about giving the opportunity of linking the Poppy to the crusades!
May I suggest you give 'Moina Michael' a quick Google.
If you don't mind, I will answer you publicly. I can understand why you wanted to send me a PM, going on Question Time soon are you!
My first post was nothing to do with being a PC statement, purely pointing out that the Poppy has no religious ties.
Rather than make this a long post, and doubt your military history knowledge, may I point out to you (only because it was you who first mentioned, 'World War 1 cemeteries') that the title 'Commonwealth War Graves Commission' begins with the word....Commonwealth.
If you think my first post gives ammunition to religious radicals....what do you think a Poppy with a cross as its shadow represents!
Talk about giving the opportunity of linking the Poppy to the crusades!
May I suggest you give 'Moina Michael' a quick Google.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.
- John McCrae
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.
- John McCrae
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I have never taken any notice of the use of the cross in that context and think it is a powerful image.
I always thought it was simply related to the fact that immediately after the war (one) that temporary wooden crosses were placed over the graves of everyone that died regardless of religion until a more permament marker could be produced, that is what I have always thought it symbolised, the fields of poppies and temporary grave markers.
That is also why some of the poppy displays you see are mounted on a simple wooden cross, it is nothing to do with religion as such, but simply shows the simple marker used to identify a fallen hero during WW1 of all religions.
WW1 Wooden grave markers
What happened to the Soldiers in WW1 after they died? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
I always thought it was simply related to the fact that immediately after the war (one) that temporary wooden crosses were placed over the graves of everyone that died regardless of religion until a more permament marker could be produced, that is what I have always thought it symbolised, the fields of poppies and temporary grave markers.
That is also why some of the poppy displays you see are mounted on a simple wooden cross, it is nothing to do with religion as such, but simply shows the simple marker used to identify a fallen hero during WW1 of all religions.
WW1 Wooden grave markers
What happened to the Soldiers in WW1 after they died? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Nov 2009 at 02:19.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Bit of a difference IMHO between temporary markers at the time... and a world wide image drooled over by the likes of Saatchi and Saatchi for months to produce the right image to bring the Poppy into the modern age.
It is good that NutLoose linked to the German grave marker website, as I was told earlier by 'a poster here' that HM Forces pledge allegiance to The Queen who is the figurehead of the Church of England, a Christian religion and the religion of the majority of our country.
So according to them the Cross represents the Church of England and not Christians or religions as a whole.
And there was me thinking that the allegiance was to The Queen as Monarch and to God as a religious figure, whichever God it may be. That was why when taking the Oath of Allegiance, those who don't believe in God are able to replace the words "swear by Almighty God" with "solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm".
I'm sure that person by now though, (you know who you are), realises what they told me is wrong, now that they are aware that the Poppy wearing was started by Moina Michael...an American.
I feel sure that no-one of any religion would be offended by the photo below and the image it portrays, however the manufactured image of a single Poppy with Cross shadow might be sending the wrong message.
It is good that NutLoose linked to the German grave marker website, as I was told earlier by 'a poster here' that HM Forces pledge allegiance to The Queen who is the figurehead of the Church of England, a Christian religion and the religion of the majority of our country.
So according to them the Cross represents the Church of England and not Christians or religions as a whole.
And there was me thinking that the allegiance was to The Queen as Monarch and to God as a religious figure, whichever God it may be. That was why when taking the Oath of Allegiance, those who don't believe in God are able to replace the words "swear by Almighty God" with "solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm".
I'm sure that person by now though, (you know who you are), realises what they told me is wrong, now that they are aware that the Poppy wearing was started by Moina Michael...an American.
I feel sure that no-one of any religion would be offended by the photo below and the image it portrays, however the manufactured image of a single Poppy with Cross shadow might be sending the wrong message.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Just to clear this up and not get too deeply embroiled in a religious discussion;
My only point is that I would not want us and the troops presently in Afghanistan to be portrayed as;
My only point is that I would not want us and the troops presently in Afghanistan to be portrayed as;
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Yes, you have to remember a cross was used for what it was, an instant recognisable and simple to build indication of a grave on a battlefield, I would imagine the battlefield would have been littered with tons of wood from the destroyed trenches, some standing upright, therefore a simple and instantly recognisable sign of a fallen hero would have been required and the fastest and cheapest to construct and place would have been a simple cross, the Id tag of the person often being nailed to it.
That with the Poppy came to symbolise the war, hundreds of thousands of simple crosses marking the dead and the Poppy that flourished over those far off fields.
That with the Poppy came to symbolise the war, hundreds of thousands of simple crosses marking the dead and the Poppy that flourished over those far off fields.
No, sorry SS. I do not believe you have explained your "niggle". Not for me anyhow.
The poppy has popularly been associated with the battlefield and remembrance of the fallen since one Madame E. Guerin noted its use as a symbol and started promoting it as a fund-raising emblem at and around Armistice day 1920, to raise funds for children orphaned by the Great War.
However, as I have said, the poppy was already associated with the battlefield - John McCrae's poem of 1915, before the war has even ended, included the following:
No, I think your dig at someone's online visual and audio tribute was just that - a petty PC dig. You didn't have to do it. You could have quietly voiced your 'niggle' to yourself and moved on. But you chose not to.
I'm not sure that you would have voiced any 'concern' had some tribute of some sort been made with emphasis on another faith such as Islam or Judaism - you wouldn't have dared! You would have been afraid of being labelled a racist or faith-hater. But because someone who perhaps has a a Christian leaning posted a tribute that is both moving and laudable, you had a go. Christianity is an easy, safe target for you. Lame, very lame.
The poppy has popularly been associated with the battlefield and remembrance of the fallen since one Madame E. Guerin noted its use as a symbol and started promoting it as a fund-raising emblem at and around Armistice day 1920, to raise funds for children orphaned by the Great War.
However, as I have said, the poppy was already associated with the battlefield - John McCrae's poem of 1915, before the war has even ended, included the following:
"In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below."
After Madame Guerin's first effort, the poppy was very quickly adopted by Canada, Britain, the USA, Australia as a symbol of rememberance - all of them predominantly Christian countries. That is not to denigrate, in any way, the service and sacrifice of the many people of different faiths who particpated in the Great War, and wars since then. However, at any gathering around a village or town memorial, particularly 11th November, the cross predominates amongst the tributes placed - that is just a result of numbers, not discrimination.Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below."
No, I think your dig at someone's online visual and audio tribute was just that - a petty PC dig. You didn't have to do it. You could have quietly voiced your 'niggle' to yourself and moved on. But you chose not to.
I'm not sure that you would have voiced any 'concern' had some tribute of some sort been made with emphasis on another faith such as Islam or Judaism - you wouldn't have dared! You would have been afraid of being labelled a racist or faith-hater. But because someone who perhaps has a a Christian leaning posted a tribute that is both moving and laudable, you had a go. Christianity is an easy, safe target for you. Lame, very lame.
Last edited by deeceethree; 5th Nov 2009 at 10:05. Reason: Date correction
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DC3
Someone is very presumptuous about my religious beliefs! 
Sorry DC3, I will not rise to any of the bait.
"Crusade against Islam and Muslims."
While you are there, type 'Crusade' into the search box!
I'm not sure that you would have voiced any 'concern' had some tribute of some sort been made with emphasis on another faith such as Islam or Judaism - you wouldn't have dared! You would have been afraid of being labelled a racist or faith-hater. But because someone who perhaps has a a Christian leaning posted a tribute that is both moving and laudable, you had a go. Christianity is an easy, safe target for you. Lame, very lame.
Sorry DC3, I will not rise to any of the bait.
"Crusade against Islam and Muslims."
While you are there, type 'Crusade' into the search box!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 5th Nov 2009 at 15:11. Reason: edited to point out that I may not necessarily be a Christian
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
DC3
Oh really!
Weakest back down I have ever seen on Pprune!
Wasn't asking for, or expecting a 'rise'. 
Oh really!
Weakest back down I have ever seen on Pprune!
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I stand by all I have said, albeit I could have been a little more diplomatic, my anti PC red mist had descended, for which I apologise. As other posters above said, the cross in this context was, I believe never intended to be taken in a religious context. If you rewatch the presentation you will see that every photograph portrayed 'British' servicemen and women, I use the word British as it was used in the presentation, but I fully accept and embrace that 'British' in this context also encompasses the many 'Commonwealth' troops that bravely lay their lives on the line for our country. In fact the image of the soldier saving himself from the burning vehicle was particularly poignant for me as I was in Basrah at the time. I do not wear a cross, I do however wear a Poppy at this time of year (and also a H4H wristband 24/7/365) and also contribute regularly.
And thanks for open posting your reply to my PM, as I said in it, I didn't want our squabble to spill over and further ruin a great post and link by NutLoose, but you just wouldn't let it lie and are now reaping the wrath of other posters. By the way, I have never been and never will be, as you alluded to above, a Facist. I will now publicly withdraw as I no longer wish to drawn into your diatribe.
TBT
I stand by all I have said, albeit I could have been a little more diplomatic, my anti PC red mist had descended, for which I apologise. As other posters above said, the cross in this context was, I believe never intended to be taken in a religious context. If you rewatch the presentation you will see that every photograph portrayed 'British' servicemen and women, I use the word British as it was used in the presentation, but I fully accept and embrace that 'British' in this context also encompasses the many 'Commonwealth' troops that bravely lay their lives on the line for our country. In fact the image of the soldier saving himself from the burning vehicle was particularly poignant for me as I was in Basrah at the time. I do not wear a cross, I do however wear a Poppy at this time of year (and also a H4H wristband 24/7/365) and also contribute regularly.
And thanks for open posting your reply to my PM, as I said in it, I didn't want our squabble to spill over and further ruin a great post and link by NutLoose, but you just wouldn't let it lie and are now reaping the wrath of other posters. By the way, I have never been and never will be, as you alluded to above, a Facist. I will now publicly withdraw as I no longer wish to drawn into your diatribe.
TBT