A Gloomy day in Cyprus
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: lower and faster than you
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Gloomy day in Cyprus
Well the RAF has finally made it official. We have all known that the Military has been stretched to breaking point for ages. And now, the truth is out there.. .. .In a week or two, it will be announced that 84 Sqn at RAF Akrotiri will lose the Wessex next year, and it will be replaced by a civilian aircraft. All of the engineers will become civilians, and one of the very best postings in the RAF will be lost. The aircrew will remain military for the time being - thank god for small mercies. If this is the Government admitting that we can't cope, and I believe it is, then it's a sad day for us all. Please don't dismiss this if you were not on the list to come to Cyprus. One of the best UK postings was RAF Shawbury - now all the engineers and half the aircrew are civvies. I am not disparaging the civvies who do the jobs...that is not my intention at all. Rather, I lament the fact that the rot has finally set in, good and proper. Don't get too comfy in your nice little posting, wherever you are, because next time, it might be you. And believe me, no matter how loud you shout, and no matter how sound your reasoning, you won't win.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting thread, LambJ, and you are right to point out that nothing is secure, however, PFI is going to be the way ahead (for anything off the battlefield that is). . .. .The advantages of PFI are firstly that the cost curves are flattened and secondly that the RAF should be able to keep up with technology by allowing regular competition between contractors over relatively short term contracts. The most saddening point you raise is in fact where you state “All of the engineers will become civilians” in which I assume you mean that the new engineering contractors will bring their own employees. This, you will find, is all linked with the RAF’s current lack of JAR licensed engineers who would be able to legally service [supervise the servicing of] the aircraft themselves. The RAF’s future engineering training policy is to align training with JAR qualifications but that is a few years away yet. . .. .Bizarre as it may seem, the Wessex seems to be retiring too soon for you.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Here and there
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For example, the Airworks contract for F3 maintenance was outstanding. They only wrote off several airframes necessitating the reformation of an RAF engineering squadron which spent a few years repairing the damage done in an attempt to save money by cutting corners...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Retired to Bisley from the small African nation
Age: 67
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the case of a PFI, though, the contractor owns the aircraft, so if the contractor ruins his own property by inadequate servicing, whose problem is that ? (as long as we have a contract to sue the pants off them if they can't deliver ).. .. .This may actually be quite a good way of shifting a large chunk of the risk of the operation to someone else.. .. .Sven
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: That Secret Airbase
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Those airworks guys did a bit of work for usHerc chaps afew years ago to fit some kit near the air deflectors. Result...a new IAS limitation on the air deflectors until the corrective work was carried out at greater expense.. .. .It is 'money saved'!!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK, sometimes!
Age: 74
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RSB,. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .An interesting thread, LambJ, and you are right to point out that nothing is secure, however, PFI is going to be the way ahead (for anything off the battlefield that is). . .. . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">In the Armed Forces there is no such thing as "anything off the front line", we can ALL be called upon in times of National crises/war to go to the front line, regardless of a/c type or trade. How many adminers or chefs thinking they were in a safe job have ended up in dodgy places over the last few years?. .. .All these cut backs in order to save money and free up personnel is just asking for BIG trouble in the future. How about a proper plan to retain and recruit across the board, rather than just targeting a few of the aircrew. The forces are desperately short of personnel across the board, and we are taking on more roles with fewer people. No wonder so many of us are leaving either prematurely or at our options points! . .. .Lets stop false economy by cutting squadrons or civilianising posts. A civilian can always refuse to go somewhere nasty, a serviceman can't. We are rapidly heading towards the day when the only people left in uniform will be the aircrew. How good will they be in a war zone if they have no backup personnel to service the aircraft, etc?. .. .I have seen the Royal Air Force, of which I was once very proud, decline into such a pile of $hite over the years with morale plummeting in many areas.. .. .Role on my options point and pension.. .. .Mad Mark!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />
Name me an RAF related PFI (apart from MT at Brize) which has resulted in any long term improvement in efficiency or cost effectiveness. Once internal capability has been lost, the contractors can jack up the prices and always do. Even the original bids are usually less effective, it's just that the flexibility of servicemen is seldom given adequate 'weighting' when costing bids, while service manpower/infrastructure costs often look high.. .. .Just one will do..... . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 23:51: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</small>
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem from the point of view of the civvies, (i.e. me, I work on the Tutor,) is that you always take the lowest bid. The result is that the contractor has to penny pinch to make the contract pay. This results in minimum manning and low pay and you therefore get an unhappy workforce.. .. .Mike W
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lamb:. .Why all the gloom?. .As a result of PFI, 84 should get some shiny new state-of-the-art aircraft, which will probably be military registered (like the Shawbury/Valley aircraft)and will have no detrimental impact on the aircrew situation. Contractor owned aircraft can be operated at much less cost than MoD owned aircraft and part of the rationale is that if civilian maintenance schedules are adhered to, the aircraft can almost instantly be restored to the civil register and therefore has a decent residual value during, and at the end of, the contract. The downside to squadron life is that the engineers do have to hold civil licences: that, for the present at least, means that they will be civilian, though probably there will be some light blue uniforms around.. .Of the contending Wessex 'replacement' aircraft there are several, including a better version of the B412 currently in service as the Griffin. Sorry, but respect I have and happy memories of my own flying in the Wessex: it's had its day. It's way too expensive to operate and there are better options around.. .New toys: be happy!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: lower and faster than you
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Several of you seem to have slightly missed the point.. .. . I am not surprised that the civvy option has been taken, simply because my time in the RAF has destroyed any vestiges of optimism I had left.. .. .We will get 'new toys to play with', you say. Yes, that's true. But only the aircrew. What about the groundcrew, who outnumber us by over 4 to 1? They will ALL be posted away, and their compatriots will never get the chance to come here (NO, there will NOT be 'a few light blue uniforms around'.) And what of that word we have seen thrown around this forum for so long...retention. This is yet another posting that a prospective engineer cannot have.. .. . Another 50+ people will be taken off the orderly sergeant/corporal/duty runner rosters - so increasing the burden on others on station. The list goes on.. .. .Oh, and for the aircrew out there, you may be interested to know that neither of the two remaining bids, the B412 (3 axis only - as much use as a chocolate kettle for SAR), and the Dauphin (Great for SAR, less so for trooping), are not nearly as capable as the military option 84 wanted...This has been dismissed because the DEC and others have pre-decided that PFI is the way ahead. The initial investment appraisal for Cyprus Helo's was flawed and incorrect. The HICIPT ignored this fact until it was simply too late to implement a military option - for political reasons I imagine. So, yes, the Wessex has had it's day, and should go. But believe me, whatever you may read in the coming weeks, the best solution was the military option that 84 Sqn wanted, not the COMR solution that they will get. I feel that many of the respondents to my intial thread have, understandably, seen this issue more from the side of serving aircrew, and less so from the view of one who is lamenting the decline of a once proud service.. .. .Look into the faces of the engineers on 84...and then tell me I am wrong.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .'Stupid is as stupid does...'
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Retired to Bisley from the small African nation
Age: 67
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LJ. .. .What was the military option 84 wanted?. .. .And if a 3-axis autopilot is as much use as a chocolate kettle, how has dear old Walter managed all these years?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radalt,. . Pretty high quality work that, I thought. Got the Japanese ******* fair and square.. .. .Whilst we are chatting, do you think you could hover your Mixmaster in front of your own line hut rather than mine? Too bluddy noisy by far.. .. .Regards,. .. .Mike W
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: lower and faster than you
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mention has been made of the fact that the Wessex is not a 4-axis acft, and therefore the B412, with it's 3-axis system, will suffice. So, what you're saying is that 84 cannot reasonably expect their new and EXPENSIVE aircraft to be any more capable than the 40yr old one that it is replacing?...interesting point of view. By that logic, I imagine you advocate the use of some ex Aeroflot Illuysins to replace the VC10?. .. .What did 84 want?. .. .Seakings.. .. .The Seaking has its problems when it comes to reliability, and the UK SAR force has a significant challenge on its hands to maintain a viable rescue force with them. BUT, UK flights have 2 aircraft, and must keep one going, and ideally two. They find this difficult. 84 need to run a two line program, but would have got 4 aircraft to meet this commitment. The aircraft in question were low time Ex-Navy aircraft which were to have been refit to RAF SAR Spec. The Seaking is known to the RAF. We have a vast pool of experience and expertise on this aircraft, both in terms of aircrew and groundcrew. It carries more troops than either of the civvy options. It flies further. It has greater endurance. It has a 4 axis autohover system...etc. .. .AND WE ALREADY HAVE THEM!!!. .. .If a pilot (for example) goes sick etc., we have a pool of people who could replace him quickly, with no need for training.. .. .Oh, and it's cheaper.. .. .All of this has been studiously ignored by the IPT. They finally decided to re-evaluate the military option only when they knew that it was too late for the required conversion work to take place before the Wessex out-of-service date. It seems that the decision to go with a COMR solution in Cyprus was taken long ago. To some, the outcome of this selection process has never been in doubt.. .. .This is the thin end of the Wedge. Once it works here (Or is 'Seen' to work, after some major spin), the UK SAR Force will be next.. .. .Oh Dear.. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 17:57: Message edited by: LambJalfraezi ]</small>
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well its just as well that the new unit will have a couple of Army Warrant Officers. With the rest of the Sqn moaning and dripping, someone will have to set the standards! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Retired to Bisley from the small African nation
Age: 67
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LJ. .. .Lets review. .. .Mention has NOT been made that a 3-a autopilot will suffice.. .. .Over many years, it has been demonstrated that the Wessex is an effective day VFR SAR platform. Many people, some no doubt known to you, have demonstrated that with skill and care it can be an effective SAR platform in more adverse conditions. . .. .Therefore the statement that a 3-a autopilot on a SAR cab is "as much use as a chocolate kettle" needs a greater defence than you give it. . .Regarding the VC-10 / IL-62 question.. .If the IL-62 had a full UK CAA certification (chance of a single failure being catastrophic - 1 in 10 to the minus 8 I think is the standard), and the contractor offered me 99.9% despatch reliability, and the operating costs were half of the most beautiful airliner ever, and if what I wanted was the capability of an IL-62, then yes I would take it.. .. .Regarding the Sea King question.. .SK is a cold war relic. The original design was to fight the anti-sub war across the North Atlantic. Its hot & high performance is appalling. The spec for the Wessex replacement must have contained some hot & high perf standards. If you put them up here, I'm sure some SAR boy (SARBoy Loser are you there?) will check the Sea King ODM against them and tell you just what chance you have of complying with GSU standards in the hover with a SK in Cyp.. .. .Regarding the expense.. .Your Sqn runs SAR Standby. Therefore you have at least 3 crews, and knowing the RAF propensity for goldplating the solution, probably 4 or 5. Thats between 9 and 15 aircrew. Your GCs outnumber you 4 to 1. So you have 36 to 60 GCs. For how many aircraft? Any contractor would be bankrupt at that level of manning. A COMR solution requires UK certified aircraft operated by licensed engineers - the work standard should be OK, or the CAA has a lot to answer for (it does, but that's another story). Modern aircraft are orders of magnitude more reliable and less maintenance-intensive than Wessex / SK vintage, thus much cheaper.. .. .Also, if you go SK you will need (assuming 4 crews - see above) 4 extra pilots. Even with the shortcuts being taken from JEFTS to Shawbury thats probably an up-front investment around £8M. You also double your training hours. A S-61 costs about £1500/hr. With the RAF propensity for gold-plating (see above) and given that the SK is a more complex machine, you are probably talking £3k/ hr x 4 pilots x 120? hrs/yr = 1.44M/ yr just in trg costs. Add on 4 x 40k in pay and double it (the usual rule regarding personnel costs) and we are hitting really frightening sums of money before we have ripped the well-worn RN airframes that are presumably being scrapped for good reason to bits and paid Wastelands more telephone numbers to put them back together in a usable state.. .. .Meanwhile, we are closing FJ Sqns, scrapping SHAR, the hospitals are cr@p, the railways are falling apart, the roads are jammed, my tax bill is outrageous and St Tony wants Blair Force One.. .. .Sorry LJ, the numbers don't add up.. .. .With apologies for usurping AGs place in the scheme of things!. .. .Sven