A Gloomy day in Cyprus
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Myra
So am I to gather from your post that is fine for:
- The rest of the Stn to pick up all those duties (Orderley cpl/sgt/duty runner/guardforce etc.)
- The aircrew to do all of the 2nd'ry duties
- The Gov't to reneg on its front-line-first commitment
- The only overseas flying Sqn to lose it's miltary GC's - you do not see this as a retention problem?
Nobody on this forum has said anything to disparage the civvy GC's - you seem to have grabbed this out of thin air. The point I made was that it is a stupid idea to civilianise the engineers in the first place - not a dig at the guys themselves - I thought this was obvious. Obviously not. Further, who has said that 84 will not be front-line when it gets civvies? I haven't read that anywhere. I think you are reaching for anything you can find to justify the unjustifiable.
I have yet to read anything on this thread to indicate that the civilianisation of a front-line Sqn is anything other than totally idiotic and incredibly short-sighted.
Oh well, only 18 months until the big payoff. Bag's already packed.
ee
So am I to gather from your post that is fine for:
- The rest of the Stn to pick up all those duties (Orderley cpl/sgt/duty runner/guardforce etc.)
- The aircrew to do all of the 2nd'ry duties
- The Gov't to reneg on its front-line-first commitment
- The only overseas flying Sqn to lose it's miltary GC's - you do not see this as a retention problem?
Nobody on this forum has said anything to disparage the civvy GC's - you seem to have grabbed this out of thin air. The point I made was that it is a stupid idea to civilianise the engineers in the first place - not a dig at the guys themselves - I thought this was obvious. Obviously not. Further, who has said that 84 will not be front-line when it gets civvies? I haven't read that anywhere. I think you are reaching for anything you can find to justify the unjustifiable.
I have yet to read anything on this thread to indicate that the civilianisation of a front-line Sqn is anything other than totally idiotic and incredibly short-sighted.
Oh well, only 18 months until the big payoff. Bag's already packed.
ee
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Teetering Head/Airbreak
You’re probably on the right lines there chaps: it may well be that if the going gets tough, the cavalry [Merlins and Chinooks] come over the horizon and the contractorised groundcrew – c/w 84 Sqn – no longer have a role to play. But how long does it take to send for the cavalry? Who delivers the SH while you’re waiting? And anyway, are the cavalry going to be available? - They could easily be too committed elsewhere considering our current shortfalls. There’s a cost in all this and its called flexibility. It appears that we can’t afford to be flexible in Cyprus and 84 Sqn are going to have to make do with the new sqn structure – hence Myra trying to be positive about it all. However, please let us not go away with the feeling that this is acceptable. Its going to happen - but it aint right.
You’re probably on the right lines there chaps: it may well be that if the going gets tough, the cavalry [Merlins and Chinooks] come over the horizon and the contractorised groundcrew – c/w 84 Sqn – no longer have a role to play. But how long does it take to send for the cavalry? Who delivers the SH while you’re waiting? And anyway, are the cavalry going to be available? - They could easily be too committed elsewhere considering our current shortfalls. There’s a cost in all this and its called flexibility. It appears that we can’t afford to be flexible in Cyprus and 84 Sqn are going to have to make do with the new sqn structure – hence Myra trying to be positive about it all. However, please let us not go away with the feeling that this is acceptable. Its going to happen - but it aint right.
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Red
Flexibility may be the key to airpower, but it's the accountants who say what we can do. I sympathise with Myra and I know there is a company line to take, but we all know the reality. 84 is in a wonderful place and a truly strategic vision could see the benefit of some long legged helicopters such as Chinooks or Merlins, but they cost a lot to run, are limited in numbers and its cheaper to keep them all in one place. Both types have proved that they can be there quickly.
Enjoy the sun, it's very dull back here.
Flexibility may be the key to airpower, but it's the accountants who say what we can do. I sympathise with Myra and I know there is a company line to take, but we all know the reality. 84 is in a wonderful place and a truly strategic vision could see the benefit of some long legged helicopters such as Chinooks or Merlins, but they cost a lot to run, are limited in numbers and its cheaper to keep them all in one place. Both types have proved that they can be there quickly.
Enjoy the sun, it's very dull back here.
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To all and sundry
Sorry for the pause in the info stream, but even those of us in the big white bldg are entitled to a little time off! It seems that the civilianisation of 84 is going somewhat awry. Overall, the boys over there in Aphrodites Isle seem to be very happy with the kit that they are getting to operate with. The Griffin is coming with flir and radar and all the rest of the bits that SARBOYS get excited about. Good job. But why? Why are 84 Sqn getting a decent piece of civilian kit? The answer, I think, is all too simple. Firstly, It is worth a mention that the civvy option that 84 is recieving is nowhere near as capable as the military option that they wanted, yet it costs far more...Hmmm - methinks some dastardley plot is afoot. The only reason that the RAF has blindly ignored the SQN's pleas to keep 84 military is because I believe that there is already a contract in the offing which will civilianise UK SAR. The Gov't will see this as a cost cutting option, but the civvies are not even half as capable AS THE MILITARY WHEN IT COMES TO SAVING LIVES - Night rescue? - Don't bother, because the civvies are not allowed into the mountains/fells/moors/hills/countryside at night. However, John Prescott will strike a deal to allow civvies the right to run the UK SAR Force. As an EX SAR Pilot, I can assure you that this will cost hundreds of lives every year. Further, I have seen some info that indicates, quite clearly, that the SAR force is in danger, and may well be civvy within 5 years.
Oh dear - Prescott/Blair? - your decisions, if taken, will live with you whilst others die...think people will stand for that?!! Well, I for one won't.
Sorry for the pause in the info stream, but even those of us in the big white bldg are entitled to a little time off! It seems that the civilianisation of 84 is going somewhat awry. Overall, the boys over there in Aphrodites Isle seem to be very happy with the kit that they are getting to operate with. The Griffin is coming with flir and radar and all the rest of the bits that SARBOYS get excited about. Good job. But why? Why are 84 Sqn getting a decent piece of civilian kit? The answer, I think, is all too simple. Firstly, It is worth a mention that the civvy option that 84 is recieving is nowhere near as capable as the military option that they wanted, yet it costs far more...Hmmm - methinks some dastardley plot is afoot. The only reason that the RAF has blindly ignored the SQN's pleas to keep 84 military is because I believe that there is already a contract in the offing which will civilianise UK SAR. The Gov't will see this as a cost cutting option, but the civvies are not even half as capable AS THE MILITARY WHEN IT COMES TO SAVING LIVES - Night rescue? - Don't bother, because the civvies are not allowed into the mountains/fells/moors/hills/countryside at night. However, John Prescott will strike a deal to allow civvies the right to run the UK SAR Force. As an EX SAR Pilot, I can assure you that this will cost hundreds of lives every year. Further, I have seen some info that indicates, quite clearly, that the SAR force is in danger, and may well be civvy within 5 years.
Oh dear - Prescott/Blair? - your decisions, if taken, will live with you whilst others die...think people will stand for that?!! Well, I for one won't.
Last edited by ethereal entity; 23rd Jul 2002 at 20:06.
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Remember those 4 ex-Navy Mk5s - earmarked for 84 Sqn - that couldn’t possibly be ready to meet the Wessex OSD of April 03. Didn't 84 Sqn desperately want those? And weren’t they discounted as unavailable before ‘best VFM’ was really examined?
Guess what? I understand that the JHC successfully poached them. Their conversion to Junglie will be complete by – wait for it – April 03.
Guess what? I understand that the JHC successfully poached them. Their conversion to Junglie will be complete by – wait for it – April 03.
