A Gloomy day in Cyprus
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84 sqn
i can see a bit of logic behind 84 sqns replacement for the wessex. the aac in brunei have 412s and the flight in belize are getting them as well. i remember being told in the late eighties that 84 were going to re-equip with pumas, so that bloke got it wrong. on the subject of akrotiri, with the way things are in the middle east i wouldnt be suprised if the dets at al kharj and ali al saleem were relocated to akkers, yes i know tankers and all that but look how near cyprus is to western iraq.
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May I second canberra's suggestion that Akrotiri be used as a base instead of Ali Al Salem and Al Kharj. Less sand, pleasant weather, and bacon and hamoulli sandwiches. Mind you, its a long way from Bahgdad.
Make mine a brandy sour.
Make mine a brandy sour.
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I still manage to speak on a fairly regular basis to a few mates on 84. Generally, the boys are quite happy with their lot, given that the idiotic decision to go COMR remains. (LJ has given up, by the way and gone to pastures new, at least if it's who I think it was). Anyway, the 412 seems to be an aircraft that the boys are quite happy to get. They are getting some nice kit with it, such as higher skids, flir, wx radar, radalt hold etc. The feeling is that it will be a nice machine to fly. The boys are less chuffed at the prospect of working with non-military groundcrew. The Sqn has a vast amount of secondary duties, and the gc's do a lot of them. These will all transfer to the aircrew. That is not to mention the 16flt aac task that they will pick up. Basically, the boys will be working non-stop 24/7/365 - it will not be a good sqn to be on. It would be interesting to see what other military ppruners would make of all of their gc's becoming civvies, and the increased workload that goes hand in hand with it.
As a sideline I occasionally fly in the Griffin when I'm not being carted around the Airshow circuit, and have generally been impressed with the civvy GC's at SY. Availability is in the region of 95%, and I for one have never seen an aircraft stripped to kit form for servicing as quickly as the chaps at SY do. Other benefits of 'someone else' doing the engineering on the aircraft are no spares problems of note - snags are not carried, if the aircraft is U/S then it gets fixed with the associated massive reduction in green line entries.
One other thing - not so sure that they are getting high skids!
One other thing - not so sure that they are getting high skids!
Just to set the record straight LambJ has not left the building and is still very much in attendance; his views like most on this forum are very personal and in no way reflect a general concencus. It is regrettable that Service enginneers are losing a prime posting, but the new engineers, many if not most may be ex-service, will very much be a part of the new 84 Sqn identity and will be welcomed as such. I have seen COMR work at other units and my initial scepticism was quickly dispelled; I for one will be looking forward to a much improved serviceability rate and the chance to fly in a modern, well equiped aircraft. For those who think that the Sqn will be a terrible place to work, let your poster know all about it and leave 84 to those that know a little better. 
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Myra,
Regrettable that another engineering post has been lost eh? Where exactly does the buck stop? A couple of years ago it was front line first and the top brass were saying no civi posts on front line sqns. You are having a laugh trying to dress this up as a step forward. Lamb J is right it's a gloomy day in Cyprus!
Regrettable that another engineering post has been lost eh? Where exactly does the buck stop? A couple of years ago it was front line first and the top brass were saying no civi posts on front line sqns. You are having a laugh trying to dress this up as a step forward. Lamb J is right it's a gloomy day in Cyprus!
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High spirits
Hear hear! I am not (thankfully from what I am hearing) a member of 84. I have no doubt that it is a proud squadron as things stand at the moment. It has been overseas for over 75 years, which MUST lead to a strong Sqn identity. I assume that this goes for both aircrew and groundcrew - at least for now. The problem will arise in Apr 03 when the civvies take over a front line Sqn. Oh yes...front line first, I almost forgot..JACKONICKO - are you reading? You may wish to peruse the gov'ts commitment to front-line-first, because 84 operates on a regular basis in the Middle East - it doesn't get much more front line than that. And yet the Sqn engineers are becoming civvies. How does Tony explain that? Could you ask him for me?! The 412 will probably be a good piece of kit, I don't think that anyone denies that, but at what price? The aircrew will be run ragged with secondary duties. The groundcrew will, I believe, live off base - with all the riots taking place at the base at the moment I imagine that they will have a lovely time! This will lead to a slickly run Sqn, or maybe it won't. What about, as LJ has said, the effect on retention? The ONLY overseas flying Sqn has just gone civvy - what a wonderful way to tempt people into a dying career. CAS...are you aware of this or have your 'filters' managed to keep you blissfully unaware. I would like to hear from others for their opinion on this matter. Does anyone seriously believe that this is a step forward? If so, why? If not, why not?
Somebody needs to do something, and that somebody is me.
Love to all
Loyal bloke who does not want the RAF to go down the tubes as certain senior officers seem content to do.
Hear hear! I am not (thankfully from what I am hearing) a member of 84. I have no doubt that it is a proud squadron as things stand at the moment. It has been overseas for over 75 years, which MUST lead to a strong Sqn identity. I assume that this goes for both aircrew and groundcrew - at least for now. The problem will arise in Apr 03 when the civvies take over a front line Sqn. Oh yes...front line first, I almost forgot..JACKONICKO - are you reading? You may wish to peruse the gov'ts commitment to front-line-first, because 84 operates on a regular basis in the Middle East - it doesn't get much more front line than that. And yet the Sqn engineers are becoming civvies. How does Tony explain that? Could you ask him for me?! The 412 will probably be a good piece of kit, I don't think that anyone denies that, but at what price? The aircrew will be run ragged with secondary duties. The groundcrew will, I believe, live off base - with all the riots taking place at the base at the moment I imagine that they will have a lovely time! This will lead to a slickly run Sqn, or maybe it won't. What about, as LJ has said, the effect on retention? The ONLY overseas flying Sqn has just gone civvy - what a wonderful way to tempt people into a dying career. CAS...are you aware of this or have your 'filters' managed to keep you blissfully unaware. I would like to hear from others for their opinion on this matter. Does anyone seriously believe that this is a step forward? If so, why? If not, why not?
Somebody needs to do something, and that somebody is me.
Love to all
Loyal bloke who does not want the RAF to go down the tubes as certain senior officers seem content to do.
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First: KEEP 84 MILITARY
Second: Can some one please explain to me how a civvy SAR Flt manages with NO ONE doing the secondary duties? Do they fail in some operational respect? Is something missing in their lives? Do they never get together for a social drink, let alone the Christmas bash?
Third: There is only one form of military unit; the one that is made up of comrades in arms.
An an’other fing, why can’t we live like a civvy and fight like hell?
Second: Can some one please explain to me how a civvy SAR Flt manages with NO ONE doing the secondary duties? Do they fail in some operational respect? Is something missing in their lives? Do they never get together for a social drink, let alone the Christmas bash?
Third: There is only one form of military unit; the one that is made up of comrades in arms.
An an’other fing, why can’t we live like a civvy and fight like hell?
High Spirits and Etheral Entity
The decision to replace service engineers with civilians has taken place and nothing you or I or anyone else says will change that; I did not say in my post that this would have been my preferred option. The vast majority of engineers I have had the privelage to work with have been dedicated, professional and motivated individuals. What makes you think that their civilian counterparts, many ex-service, will not be of the same high standard. I prefer to meet them before I make ill informed judgement as seems to be your preferred option.
The riots you describe have not actually happened, there was one night of disturbance last Tuesday but very little since, we are not under seige.
You seem to think that 84 Sqn will not be a good place to work next year. Fine, tell your desk officer you don't want to come and let us worry about the challenges that the next 18 months will bring.
One final thought, why will 84 not be front line just because the gingers don't wear blue suits? This probably seems like a major bite to your posts and it probably is, but I am fed up with the facile ill-informed bickering which seems to be taking over this forum
The decision to replace service engineers with civilians has taken place and nothing you or I or anyone else says will change that; I did not say in my post that this would have been my preferred option. The vast majority of engineers I have had the privelage to work with have been dedicated, professional and motivated individuals. What makes you think that their civilian counterparts, many ex-service, will not be of the same high standard. I prefer to meet them before I make ill informed judgement as seems to be your preferred option.
The riots you describe have not actually happened, there was one night of disturbance last Tuesday but very little since, we are not under seige.
You seem to think that 84 Sqn will not be a good place to work next year. Fine, tell your desk officer you don't want to come and let us worry about the challenges that the next 18 months will bring.
One final thought, why will 84 not be front line just because the gingers don't wear blue suits? This probably seems like a major bite to your posts and it probably is, but I am fed up with the facile ill-informed bickering which seems to be taking over this forum
Senis Semper Fidelis
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When the Saudi Royals finally capitulate to the demands from Osama Bin Liner, and kick out all the infidels, Cyprus will be the front line, when the raging hoards from the East start to do nasty things on that little gem in the Med, where will that leave the civilian workers including ground crews, they may be ex service people, but they will be civilians all the same, will they be given the SA80, or a quick flight home, who would weild the spanners then?
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Myra,
The vast majority of engineers I have had the privilege of working with are also dedicated and professional to the extreme. In my post I never suggested 84 would be a bad place to work - certainly not if you fly. I asked a question which you chose not to answer - "Front Line First" where does the buck stop? When your pool of dedicated professionals dries up in X number of years, 84Sqn and the MOD are going to get royally fleeced when the contract price rises. Then I suppose we'll get some shoddy Far Eastern sweatshop subcontractor to do the job. Who picks up the eng secondary duties? Everyone else (military) on stn I suppose.
We have just had the AFBLT come round our patch talking about retention measures. Taking away one of the best foreign eng postings going - is that smart retention? People are entitled to express their concerns on this forum, so if you don't like reading about genuine concerns then read www.headinthesand.com....
The vast majority of engineers I have had the privilege of working with are also dedicated and professional to the extreme. In my post I never suggested 84 would be a bad place to work - certainly not if you fly. I asked a question which you chose not to answer - "Front Line First" where does the buck stop? When your pool of dedicated professionals dries up in X number of years, 84Sqn and the MOD are going to get royally fleeced when the contract price rises. Then I suppose we'll get some shoddy Far Eastern sweatshop subcontractor to do the job. Who picks up the eng secondary duties? Everyone else (military) on stn I suppose.
We have just had the AFBLT come round our patch talking about retention measures. Taking away one of the best foreign eng postings going - is that smart retention? People are entitled to express their concerns on this forum, so if you don't like reading about genuine concerns then read www.headinthesand.com....
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Myra
Please lighten up. Everyone will will agree that it is a compromise having civilian engineers. The best solution would be to have some Merlins/Chinooks out there with some reach, but day-to-day the 412s will cover the basics of SAR, some SH and the former tasking of the AAC Flt and will fit into the garrison quite well.
Merlins or Chinooks out there would be undertasked, but people are just having their say. It is regrettable that military groundcrew will be lost, but it is economics. Many of us would give their right arm for your job, especially as it is a different front line to NI/Kosovo/Bosnia/Afghanistan.
You might not want some of the people who post here, but they are just voicing concerns, just like in any crew room.
Enjoy your tour.
Please lighten up. Everyone will will agree that it is a compromise having civilian engineers. The best solution would be to have some Merlins/Chinooks out there with some reach, but day-to-day the 412s will cover the basics of SAR, some SH and the former tasking of the AAC Flt and will fit into the garrison quite well.
Merlins or Chinooks out there would be undertasked, but people are just having their say. It is regrettable that military groundcrew will be lost, but it is economics. Many of us would give their right arm for your job, especially as it is a different front line to NI/Kosovo/Bosnia/Afghanistan.
You might not want some of the people who post here, but they are just voicing concerns, just like in any crew room.
Enjoy your tour.
Gentleman Aviator
And I do rather think Vfrpilotpb, that if and when
the defence of the SBAs may not be left ENTIRELY to the ginger beers on 84 Sqn.
You'd probably see the Chinooks and Merlins then too airbreak.
the raging hoards from the East start to do nasty things on that little gem in the Med
You'd probably see the Chinooks and Merlins then too airbreak.