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Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)

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Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)

Old 8th Dec 2010, 08:40
  #7261 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
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Walter - if you are expecting a shred of credibility on this forum, answer the questions!
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 14:00
  #7262 (permalink)  
 
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Walt,

Come on chap, the questions are clear and easy to give replies to! Why the silence?

One-word answers will do!
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 15:26
  #7263 (permalink)  
 
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Your 7339

Walter,

I quite agree that Flt Lt Tapper would not have placed much reliance in a STANS he had little faith in. That is probably why Mr Cable found it switched off. As we have discussed before, that could not have happened on impact. It almost certainly was switched off deliberately by one of the crew.

If JT had little faith in STANS, why on earth would he place any at all in a piece of equipment which was recently fitted, he had probably never used before, and had no release to service.

Portable DME, Intrinsically reliable?
Are you stating fact or is that a wild stab in the dark?
The DME receiver element of the old X Channel TACANS in the 130K was notoriously unreliable. In the early 90's it generated many serious incidents.
One aircraft in Bardufoss Fjord broke cloud with the mountain in front, on a LLZR/DME approach.
After that we had one of the bad TACANS replaced with a more modern X/Y Channel receiver. It was far more reliable, but still generated the odd incident.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 16:11
  #7264 (permalink)  
 
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Dalek
<<Portable DME, Intrinsically reliable?
Are you stating fact or is that a wild stab in the dark?>>
From a systems view, it was like plugging a GPS into the cigarette lighter socket in your car - if what you got made sense and was of the right order then it was, from what I've heard and would expect, more accurate than radar.
But why ask me? - there must be those around who have used it - try persuading them to make a comment on the open forum - good luck!
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 16:29
  #7265 (permalink)  
 
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Chinook

BOAC. Please do not wake Walter from his reverie, he is giving us all too much amusement. JP
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 17:59
  #7266 (permalink)  
 
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Walter,
The old XChannel TACAN was equally simple.
1. Switch on.
2. Select T/R for Range and Bearing or Rec for Bearing Only.(Good if you didn't want people to know you were interrogating their beacon).
3. Check Morse ident to confirm you had right beacon.

The range you obtained was accurate to 0.1%. Much better than most radars, at ranges up to around 100nms(ish).
The problem was, sometimes (fairly frequently) the range you got was plain wrong.
No problem when the error was large, because, DR, Mapping Radar and the Omega VLF System would highlight the error.
The problem came on VOR/ LLZR/DME approaches when you were descending
to very low MDA's using step down fixes. An error of 2nms could kill you and your backup aids were not good enough to pick up this small error.

We got around the problem on the C130 by fitting a DME that very rarely did this, and a certified GPS/IN.

Unless the CPLS was 100% foolproof. And like me, you do not seem to know,
the crew had to rely on GPS fed TANS, which they distrusted and switched off, or visual assessment of their DME reading.
There was no fallback to Radar Ranging.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 21:08
  #7267 (permalink)  
 
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There is no substitute for direct experience with the CPLS of the time.
It would be of general interest to all, I would have thought.
But no one at all has come forward on this forum to describe their experience of its performance.
What are people afraid of in a land of free speech? - a Wallyleaks fiasco? No one is going to sell you to the Americans for describing this system - the manufacturers have claimed performance for years that does not seem to have been questioned by US forces who have used it for years and have had thousands and thousands of these sets.
I don't think any of you here would talk about a magnetic compass if you thought you weren't supposed to.

Got anything constructive other than smart quips, JP? Surely you could dig around and give Dalek what he wants? Some of us are trying to get to the bottom of this and in doing so we have at the very least exposed how pathetic and baseless the findings against the pilots were - something the likes of you could have contributed to years ago if you had the mind to.
Just keep running around in circles on the innocuous approved areas, eh?
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 21:18
  #7268 (permalink)  
 
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Chinook

Walter. As BOAC says, please answer the question. Regards JP
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 01:57
  #7269 (permalink)  
 
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JP:

I know this doesn't add to the conversation and I'm somewhat in agreement with your "harassment" of Walter but, (having seen a pattern), I'm fairly sure you should have been a Gunner. Simply because, odds are, you are a much better sniper than you ever were a pilot.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 07:37
  #7270 (permalink)  
 
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much better sniper
No chance. Strictly Small Bore.


Walter. The onus has always been on MoD to answer legitimate questions and, now, on Lord Philip to ask them. May I suggest you give him your information. MoD have clearly stated CPLS was not fitted. You have a complete physical description and the Station number it was located at. If he discovers it was fitted, he will not be impressed about such a lie and should dig deeper. At which point the subject would be "new" evidence, which MoD have also denied the existence of. It may not prove your case, but would introduce even more doubt; which should help achieve the primary aim.

Dealing with the conduct of the Full Bore snipers will hopefully follow!
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 08:49
  #7271 (permalink)  
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To all:
I have not pursued this line since 8/12 as I received a PM from 'Walter'. I have accepted his promise that he will 'let everyone know' before Christmas and at his request have postponed my call, but left him in no doubt of my position. At this time I accept the assurances he has given me. It will not be difficult to establish whether in fact what I called for has been done

Not for me to halt the cries for answers, but I would hope we could find other things to look at before then, and of course if things do not happen as expected, we are free to re-assess our own judgement.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 09:53
  #7272 (permalink)  
 
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AA and Tuc

You may not always agree with JP but can you leave the personality jibes out of this forum.

Thanks.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 11:51
  #7273 (permalink)  
 
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Chinook

bastOn. Many thanks, but these folk are merely following the golden rulei of incompetent contention, ie if you don't like the message, then attack the messenger. With all good wishes, JP
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 14:23
  #7274 (permalink)  
 
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JP:

but these folk are merely following the golden rulei of incompetent contention, ie if you don't like the message, then attack the messenger.
People, glass houses and stones spring to mind...

BOAC. Please do not wake Walter from his reverie, he is giving us all too much amusement. JP
Just because you don't like his message...
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 15:14
  #7275 (permalink)  
 
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What is a golden rulei?
Is it something rich people measure with?
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 15:59
  #7276 (permalink)  
 
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Dalek

What is a golden rulei?
It is of course one of the Araucaria family of conifers!

AA

but these folk are merely following the golden rulei of incompetent contention, ie if you don't like the message, then attack the messenger.
You are doing it again

I don't think that JP has ever been personally rude. His "attacks" have always been aimed at the views of the messanger rather than the messengers themselves.

Shall we carry on, politely, rubbishing each others views....................?

PS Why can we not have a spell checker on here. When we all get over excited our spilling seams to go two ritshot.............
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 16:06
  #7277 (permalink)  
 
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Baston:

PS Why can we not have a spell checker on here. When we all get over excited our spilling seams to go two ritshot.............
Firefox checks your spelling for you...
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Old 10th Dec 2010, 20:07
  #7278 (permalink)  
 
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Various responses

Just a reminder as per my post 6641 , page 333 , the only relevant met.information available to the crew apon which to base a choice of route were the TAF and METAR for Machrihanish , ten nautical miles north of the lighthouse . There was no mention of the Mull itself ,(which is specifically the southern tip of the Kintyre peninsular ) , and anything you read here to suggest otherwise is an interpretation made by others after the event from observations made later in the day . Effectively an aftercast......

............whether or not you think they were using waypoint A at all , as represented by the guidance of the GPS , they were certainly flying towards it , without any turns , and passed East abeam of it shortly before the major impact .......

..some quotes from Walter...
Flt Lt Tapper was well aware of the potential inaccuracy of the STANS of the time - I have argued for a long time that they would not have relied upon it as close in as waypoint change.........
and of the CPLS.......
(you got an approximate bearing)
...slight conflict there.....even you do not think the CPLS is better..???..


I cannot believe that anyone would stop using a GPS guidance in favour of a simple DME ........Trying to overfly any point via DME alone is impossible in a fixed wing a/c , as the correction needed increases as you approach closer....and you have to mentally judge he rate of change of distance/eta.....in a helicopter it is hard but you can cheat by going to a hover and moving sideways to see if the range changes . Using a VOR/DME or GPS it is still hard as you still do not have the time to react to the needle or display , I try this almost every time go flying , looking down to see where the VOR really is . I have to challenge Walter to ask if he has ever tried this.??.....the only practical way you can use DME alone for nav. is flying a DME ARC ......

The fatal last few seconds of flight actually took them over a small cottage , and I think that a possible and far more likely theory , is that they could see this cottage way up on the hillside (although the top of the lighthouse (40 feet high ) was hidden )..........Rather than use radio , anyone based in this cottage could point a strobe light at the approaching helicopter to emulate the lighthouse proper and lure them to the wrong place (for the conspiracy theorists ) ..... or alternatively (for the realists) if anyone were taking flash photos near the cottage at the relevant time it could have been a simple mistake ....if the flash were powerful enough to be visible..........that should be easy to check as it is known who was present that day.......

rgds Robin....
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Old 10th Dec 2010, 20:24
  #7279 (permalink)  
 
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dalek
I hope its nothing like a golden rivet

Perhaps Robin could tell us about golden rivets?

Last edited by walter kennedy; 10th Dec 2010 at 20:29. Reason: addition
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Old 10th Dec 2010, 20:26
  #7280 (permalink)  
 
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One has to remember the GPS / SuperTANS combination presented error codes that were ďmeaninglessĒ. That is, if the system displayed a faulty the crew had no way of knowing what to do or what it meant, so would in all probability have to ignore the system or switch it off. The resultant distraction is self evident.

The GPS unit had a number of faults. Time of Day output was faulty, as was the power supply; both fairly fundamental issues in a GPS system.

Neither the GPS nor SuperTANS was cleared for use.

The SuperTANS installation was vulnerable to EMC problems.

Despite the above, MoDís position remains that both systems were perfectly serviceable. Despite warning crews not to rely solely on the systems, MoDís case relies solely on them.

I canít reconcile these facts. Too many problems to be absolutely certain the system was working correctly and displaying the correct information.
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