Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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@Beagle
For once I will disagree with you. This is exactly the time for this as it fits squarely with the new open, fair etc world we are now to inhabit.
The various families have waited long enough. If this new government means what it says then this is precisely the sort of issue to be addressed now.
Regards
EG
I will also mention that I look forward to him delivering on his promise, but recognise that now may not be quite the time as he has more urgent matters to deal with first.
The various families have waited long enough. If this new government means what it says then this is precisely the sort of issue to be addressed now.
Regards
EG
My heart agrees with ExGrunt.
My head says, lets be practical - a few more weeks will make no real difference to this, but the mess the countries finances are in needs attention right now, and a full government also needs putting properly in place.
In a month or so, then a gentle reminder of this commitment would be appropriate.
And BEAgle, nicely put to JP - I thought the same.......
My head says, lets be practical - a few more weeks will make no real difference to this, but the mess the countries finances are in needs attention right now, and a full government also needs putting properly in place.
In a month or so, then a gentle reminder of this commitment would be appropriate.
And BEAgle, nicely put to JP - I thought the same.......
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Chinook
My apologies, and no snide comments are called for!; I see that in this latest letter to BEAgle the new PM had undertaken to 'review' the case; I seem to recall that he had originally promised to 'overturn' the verdict. Am I still mistaken? Regards. JP
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BEagles post 2234
I was curious so I searched.
The PM-in-waiting, David Cameron, has just written to me in response to my direct question asking him what he will do when he takes office after the inevitable demise of Noo Labour. He writes:
"Thank you for your further e-mail about the Chinook accident. I can understand and appreciate your concerns with regards to the verdict.
This is a longstanding issue and has been the subject of an Opposition Day debate.
I also signed EDM 651 on this issue (he included the text of the EDM at this point)
The House of Lords Select Committee report unanimously concluded that the reviewing officers were not justified in finding that negligence on the part of the pilots caused the aircraft to crash.
I believe now that the only honourable course for the Government is to reinstate the reputations of the two brave young pilots who lost their lives. As I see it, the Lords Select Committee confirms that there was a miscarriage of justice.
Thank you again for writing to me about this.
(DC)
I shall now e-mail DC to thank him for his reply - and to ask whether he will make it an urgent priority of his government to take the "only honourable course" of which he writes.
(me again) That seems to be a fairly unequivocal statement, assuming that is, that the word "honourable" hasn't been redefined in our new political world. Perhaps we should have courted Nick Clegg over this issue as I'm sure he could have slipped this in as a condition of the coalition. We live in hope that right will prevail.
The PM-in-waiting, David Cameron, has just written to me in response to my direct question asking him what he will do when he takes office after the inevitable demise of Noo Labour. He writes:
"Thank you for your further e-mail about the Chinook accident. I can understand and appreciate your concerns with regards to the verdict.
This is a longstanding issue and has been the subject of an Opposition Day debate.
I also signed EDM 651 on this issue (he included the text of the EDM at this point)
The House of Lords Select Committee report unanimously concluded that the reviewing officers were not justified in finding that negligence on the part of the pilots caused the aircraft to crash.
I believe now that the only honourable course for the Government is to reinstate the reputations of the two brave young pilots who lost their lives. As I see it, the Lords Select Committee confirms that there was a miscarriage of justice.
Thank you again for writing to me about this.
(DC)
I shall now e-mail DC to thank him for his reply - and to ask whether he will make it an urgent priority of his government to take the "only honourable course" of which he writes.
(me again) That seems to be a fairly unequivocal statement, assuming that is, that the word "honourable" hasn't been redefined in our new political world. Perhaps we should have courted Nick Clegg over this issue as I'm sure he could have slipped this in as a condition of the coalition. We live in hope that right will prevail.
If you're going to quote from other peoples' posts, please use the 'quote' feature....
For anyone tempted to write to David, pleaase observe the normal etiquette of writing to your own MP, not direct to the PM!
Just back in the country, so will be e-mailing my MP, the PM, tomorrow.
For anyone tempted to write to David, pleaase observe the normal etiquette of writing to your own MP, not direct to the PM!
Just back in the country, so will be e-mailing my MP, the PM, tomorrow.
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TN
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No offense meant BEagle, can you tell me how?
Hit the
Post Reply
You will find that above the text box there is a row of icons ranging from the left BOLD ITALICS etc.....
Third from the right is an Icon that looks like a speech bubble. Select that and then paste your selection inside of the quotes....
Hey Presto
What he said!
And here's some information concerning Dr Fox's position:
I have now e-mailed DC as follows:
And here's some information concerning Dr Fox's position:
Of the Chinook accident, Jamie McGrigor, Conservative Highlands and Islands MSP, says: ‘I well remember this terrible tragedy in 1994 which killed 29 people and shocked the people of Argyll to the core. Many were never happy with the MOD’s handling of events thereafter’.
Pointing out that: ‘Obviously this is a matter reserved to Westminster’, Jamie McGrigor has contacted the Conservative Shadow Defence Secretary, the Rt Hon Liam Fox MP.
Dr Fox came up with the fact that that the recently published Hadden-Cove report on the Nimrod crash sets an appropriate precedent. He has said to Jamie McGrigor that he feels it is time now to put this matter (the 1994 Kintyre Chinook crash) to rest and to try to establish the truth of what happened with an independent inquiry.
If the Conservative party wins the next general election they have now committed to launching such an independent inquiry which, as Jamie McGrigor says: ‘ will hopefully finally clear the brave pilots of any negligence’.
Pointing out that: ‘Obviously this is a matter reserved to Westminster’, Jamie McGrigor has contacted the Conservative Shadow Defence Secretary, the Rt Hon Liam Fox MP.
Dr Fox came up with the fact that that the recently published Hadden-Cove report on the Nimrod crash sets an appropriate precedent. He has said to Jamie McGrigor that he feels it is time now to put this matter (the 1994 Kintyre Chinook crash) to rest and to try to establish the truth of what happened with an independent inquiry.
If the Conservative party wins the next general election they have now committed to launching such an independent inquiry which, as Jamie McGrigor says: ‘ will hopefully finally clear the brave pilots of any negligence’.
Dear David,
Many, many congratulations on having been elected to become our Prime Minister. A great honour both for you, your family and your constituents!
Although you will undoubtedly have more urgent matters of national importance to tackle over the next few weeks and months, might I remind you that you promised to re-examine the tragedy of the Chinook accident on the Mull of Kintyre. I hope that you will be able to move forward on your promise as soon as occasions permit and look forward to a long overdue resolution to the whole matter.
Again, my warmest congratulations - and didn't I tell you several years ago that you would undoubtedly become Prime Minister?
Best wishes to you and your family,
(BEagle)
Many, many congratulations on having been elected to become our Prime Minister. A great honour both for you, your family and your constituents!
Although you will undoubtedly have more urgent matters of national importance to tackle over the next few weeks and months, might I remind you that you promised to re-examine the tragedy of the Chinook accident on the Mull of Kintyre. I hope that you will be able to move forward on your promise as soon as occasions permit and look forward to a long overdue resolution to the whole matter.
Again, my warmest congratulations - and didn't I tell you several years ago that you would undoubtedly become Prime Minister?
Best wishes to you and your family,
(BEagle)
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Thanks Beagle - keep us posted pse.
Been away sorry, so if these comments hark back a bit, my apols.
Robin's most recent theory is welcomed but, like all others (including D&W, Walt's ...and mine), nowt but conjecture.
While he does point out the fact that the crew did not have an IFR option because of navigtion and engine system limitations, Robin's description of the in-flight visibility is what causes me most concern - if only for the fact we have absolutely no idea of the in-flight visibility!
In this respect, what tips it for many is that the yachtsman (who could clearly see the ac) confirmed they had reasonable visibility (rocks/beach, NI coast and Skanda), the cloud was confined to the actual slopes of the mull and the ac was described as in sunlight, below the higher-level cloud. While the sequence of events and conditions that Robin describes are possibilities, they are only that - possibilities - hardly sufficient 'evidence'? However, my experience of that area (and others on the west coast of the UK) leads me to believe the ac was probably clear of cloud, in sight of surface, VMC below and with a visibility of 1nm or greater in the moments leading up the final impact. What no-one can answer is why the crew did not turn away from the clearly-visible, cloud-blanketed mull. That said, there are plenty enough possibilities for this lack of turn - some even listed by the AAIB; which the BOI chose to play down or ignore.
In all this there is doubt, plenty of doubt. For that reason alone the Air Marshalls failed in their duies to follow the mandated regulations of AP3207 and QRs.
As for airworthiness, the MoD's case is riddled with multiple cases of non-compliance, negligence and failures, possibly even right up to Controller Aircraft and his minions. Whilst with a pair of 'big picture' glasses on, I can see they were stuck between a rock and a hard place but what they have done since the crash is nothing but unforgiveable. Their actions could be seen as duplicitous, two-faced, obfuscating and cowardly and, ultimately, they have allowed 2 innocents to take the blame for their higher-level errors; not good leadership or honour? These AMs deserve all that is coming to them because if the politicians do not get their act together, the courts will have Spiers, Norriss, Bagnall, Day and Wratten for breakfast. In fact, these men (I won't call them gentlemen) have tarnished the good name of the RAF and it is difficult to see how they could retain the slightest vestige of credibility within the circles in which they move. I would hope that many on this forum would not be sad to see them exposed even if the BOI verdict is overturned.
Of course, that will never happen but.......
'they know that we know that they porked it and covered it up'
- which may have to suffice.
flipster
Been away sorry, so if these comments hark back a bit, my apols.
Robin's most recent theory is welcomed but, like all others (including D&W, Walt's ...and mine), nowt but conjecture.
While he does point out the fact that the crew did not have an IFR option because of navigtion and engine system limitations, Robin's description of the in-flight visibility is what causes me most concern - if only for the fact we have absolutely no idea of the in-flight visibility!
In this respect, what tips it for many is that the yachtsman (who could clearly see the ac) confirmed they had reasonable visibility (rocks/beach, NI coast and Skanda), the cloud was confined to the actual slopes of the mull and the ac was described as in sunlight, below the higher-level cloud. While the sequence of events and conditions that Robin describes are possibilities, they are only that - possibilities - hardly sufficient 'evidence'? However, my experience of that area (and others on the west coast of the UK) leads me to believe the ac was probably clear of cloud, in sight of surface, VMC below and with a visibility of 1nm or greater in the moments leading up the final impact. What no-one can answer is why the crew did not turn away from the clearly-visible, cloud-blanketed mull. That said, there are plenty enough possibilities for this lack of turn - some even listed by the AAIB; which the BOI chose to play down or ignore.
In all this there is doubt, plenty of doubt. For that reason alone the Air Marshalls failed in their duies to follow the mandated regulations of AP3207 and QRs.
As for airworthiness, the MoD's case is riddled with multiple cases of non-compliance, negligence and failures, possibly even right up to Controller Aircraft and his minions. Whilst with a pair of 'big picture' glasses on, I can see they were stuck between a rock and a hard place but what they have done since the crash is nothing but unforgiveable. Their actions could be seen as duplicitous, two-faced, obfuscating and cowardly and, ultimately, they have allowed 2 innocents to take the blame for their higher-level errors; not good leadership or honour? These AMs deserve all that is coming to them because if the politicians do not get their act together, the courts will have Spiers, Norriss, Bagnall, Day and Wratten for breakfast. In fact, these men (I won't call them gentlemen) have tarnished the good name of the RAF and it is difficult to see how they could retain the slightest vestige of credibility within the circles in which they move. I would hope that many on this forum would not be sad to see them exposed even if the BOI verdict is overturned.
Of course, that will never happen but.......
'they know that we know that they porked it and covered it up'
- which may have to suffice.
flipster
Last edited by flipster; 15th May 2010 at 19:59.
...the courts will have Spiers, Norriss, B******, Day and Wratten for breakfast.
There is a code, you know!
flipster, the closest equivalent to the enforced removal of a lord from the Upper House would, for a knight, probably be to strip him of his knighthood....
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Not moving in such circles (nor understanding them, nor caring 2 figs about them), what you suggest does sound a rather appropriate level of censure - if Sirs various had been found to have been negligent in their duties and had blamed others instead. Wishful thinking maybe?