Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Walter
I'll confine myself to answering just one of your points as jayteeto and Seldomfitforpurpose have already put their weight behind me on this.
You say:
This is a suitable example of why there's no point in your contributing. There are hundreds of "known landing area[s]" for this type throughout the UK and it is therefore of no surprise that the aircraft crashed near to one (if indeed it was one). Indeed, in extremis a Chinook can land on any piece of fairly flat ground that has more than 20 m or so of clearance from obstructions. If you were a journalist, you would be the guy writing that the pilot struggled with the controls of the stricken craft to avoid the kindergarten (of which there are also hundreds in the UK). Helicopters don't land at 120 kts+ - that's probably why the possibility was never brought up!
As for ...........
What the heck is that supposed to mean? Why would anybody be reluctant to contribute? This is an anonymous site! 
I'll confine myself to answering just one of your points as jayteeto and Seldomfitforpurpose have already put their weight behind me on this.
You say:
does it not merit mention that they crashed within a few hundred yards of a known landing area for that a/c type? Should this not have been brought up at the inquiries? With what little is said to be known about this crash, could this proximity to a suitable landing area have been considered as an indication that they were in trouble, for example, and wanted to land? Why was it not even brought up?
As for ...........
I have always hoped that by boldly pushing forward such views, I may have opened the scope for others to contribute who, for obvious reasons, may have been reluctant.
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meadowbank
Here we go again – you wrote:
<<Helicopters don't land at 120 kts+ - that's probably why the possibility was never brought up! >>
I have repeatedly over a long period referred to Boeing’s “Analysis of Available Data” wherein it was concluded that the a/c had started to slow down in terms of TAS (but the increase in tailwind component near the Mull had masked this).
I have put the view that they were somehow misled in their judgment of range to go to whatever reference they were using.
Now in your experience, would, say, 1/2 a mile more have been enough to slow down to a suitable approach speed? (For a landing or close pass.)
Here we go again – you wrote:
<<Helicopters don't land at 120 kts+ - that's probably why the possibility was never brought up! >>
I have repeatedly over a long period referred to Boeing’s “Analysis of Available Data” wherein it was concluded that the a/c had started to slow down in terms of TAS (but the increase in tailwind component near the Mull had masked this).
I have put the view that they were somehow misled in their judgment of range to go to whatever reference they were using.
Now in your experience, would, say, 1/2 a mile more have been enough to slow down to a suitable approach speed? (For a landing or close pass.)
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This may be of interest from todays Scotland on Sunday newspaper.
< http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ash.3667451.jp >
< http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ash.3667451.jp >
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By way of comparison, I would like to draw attention to the Australian Blackhawk that crashed whilst attempting to land on the Kanimbla.
This helicopter was heavily laden and presumably wanted to get directly onto the flight deck rather than hover slowly over the sea at an awkward height with the consequent risks of vortex ring etc.. – it was an exercise with some risk recognised in the circumstances.
THIS CASE UNDERLINES THE IMPORTANCE OF INSTRUMENTS IN GIVING ACCURATE DISTANCES TO GO FOR HELICOPTERS AND HOW THINGS CAN GO WRONG IF THEY ARE EITHER WRONG OR USED INCORRECTLY – EVEN, AS IN THIS CASE, IN PERFECT VFR CONDITIONS.
This is an article about the Australian Blackhawk crash onto the Kanimbla – this link shows video footage:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJwwcT7MWM8
Note the clear weather conditions and that the tailwind was only about 15 kts (as opposed to more like 30 kts in the Chinook case) – I have highlighted certain points:
The Australian (a National Newspaper)
D.D. McNicoll | July 11, 2007
THE co-pilot of the Black Hawk helicopter that plunged into the sea off Fiji last year, killing two men, believed the aircraft would bounce and keep flying after it hit the deck of HMAS Kanimbla during a training exercise.
"It did feel a very firm landing but I did think we would keep flying," the army captain, who cannot be identified, told the board of inquiry into the incident yesterday.
However, the tail of the aircraft snapped off and the fuselage fell into the ocean, sinking rapidly.
The pilot, Captain Mark Bingley, and SAS trooper Joshua Porter, a passenger in the rear of the helicopter, were killed in the accident on November 29.
The co-pilot, code-named Captain No 7, who quickly exited the sinking aircraft and swam to the surface, said the emergency training conducted for Black Hawk crews did not take into account the aircraft sinking rapidly but simulated it floating or sinking slowly.
He described how he ignored training procedures and grabbed his breathing device, unbuckled his seat belt and exited the aircraft while it was sinking. In training drills, he had been told not to do anything until the aircraft stopped moving.
Because he was flying in the right-hand seat, he had a clear path to the surface as the helicopter sank left side down.
Captain No 7 said he swam between four and eight metres to the surface: "It was at a depth that required a considerable amount of swimming to get to the surface."
He said he thought the flight was normal until the aircraft hit the ship's deck. "I didn't have to say anything out of the ordinary," he said.
Earlier in the inquiry, SAS troopers travelling in the rear of the aircraft said they heard swearing and shouting between the pilot and the co-pilot before the impact. *(see note 1)
Asked what he thought had caused the accident, Captain No7 said that in his opinion, the aircraft suffered transient rotor droop - a drop in power to the rotor, not a physical droop of the blades - and dropped out of the air on to the deck.
He said that before the Black Hawk left the ship, the pilot had taken a GPS reading on the deck to confirm the position they needed to return to, but when the Black Hawk flew back to that GPS mark, the ship had drifted away.
"I believe the GPS mark was in error," Captain No 7 said.
"I believe the GPS waypoint was not where we were flying to.
"We may have been physically closer to the termination point."
Yesterday afternoon, a senior army flier who investigated the crash and ran multiple simulations of the fatal flight on simulators in Melbourne and Queensland said he had calculated that the ship had drifted 320m to the left while the Black Hawk was in the air.
Code-named Major 5, the pilot said it had been estimated that the Black Hawk had approached HMAS Kanimbla at 98 knots rather than the less than 80 knots the exercise required.
Major 5 said when the helicopter was approaching the ship and the co-pilot, using the GPS position, had estimated the distance at 800m, it was probably less than 700m from the ship.
"If you were aware of the GPS error, you would assess the situation visually and fly more conservatively," he said, "but it is difficult to gauge distances visually over water." ** (see note 2)
He said that if a pilot found he was too fast or too close, he could flare the aircraft (lift the nose) at a greater rate to slow it down, or opt to go around and make a second attempt.
Major 5 said that in the simulations of the landing he had carried out in flight simulators, he had found that the helicopter would not have crashed had it been flying five knots slower or carrying 1000lbs (454kg) less weight.
Computer generated film of the simulated landings was shown to the inquiry, but it was ruled too confidential for public release.
NOTES
*1 Several press releases at the time (which I cannot locate just now) referred to an argument between the co-pilot (who survived) and the captain (who died and who was the handling pilot) – as I recall, the co-pilot had told the handling pilot that, according to instruments, he was getting too close at their speed but the handling pilot had insisted on his own visual judgment being correct. Until I relocate the articles, I cannot be sure which instrument the co-pilot was referring too – I do seem to recall thinking at the time that it was the ship’s TACAN that was giving the distance – and this squares with the GPS giving a too far to go reading – the TACAN would have been where the ship actually was.
The accurate distance to go would have been far more critical for ZD576 as there was steeply rising ground ahead – and poorer visual clues if whatever instrument they were referring to was misleading them.
**2 And yet with a familiar ship as the destination in clear conditions.
This helicopter was heavily laden and presumably wanted to get directly onto the flight deck rather than hover slowly over the sea at an awkward height with the consequent risks of vortex ring etc.. – it was an exercise with some risk recognised in the circumstances.
THIS CASE UNDERLINES THE IMPORTANCE OF INSTRUMENTS IN GIVING ACCURATE DISTANCES TO GO FOR HELICOPTERS AND HOW THINGS CAN GO WRONG IF THEY ARE EITHER WRONG OR USED INCORRECTLY – EVEN, AS IN THIS CASE, IN PERFECT VFR CONDITIONS.
This is an article about the Australian Blackhawk crash onto the Kanimbla – this link shows video footage:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJwwcT7MWM8
Note the clear weather conditions and that the tailwind was only about 15 kts (as opposed to more like 30 kts in the Chinook case) – I have highlighted certain points:
The Australian (a National Newspaper)
D.D. McNicoll | July 11, 2007
THE co-pilot of the Black Hawk helicopter that plunged into the sea off Fiji last year, killing two men, believed the aircraft would bounce and keep flying after it hit the deck of HMAS Kanimbla during a training exercise.
"It did feel a very firm landing but I did think we would keep flying," the army captain, who cannot be identified, told the board of inquiry into the incident yesterday.
However, the tail of the aircraft snapped off and the fuselage fell into the ocean, sinking rapidly.
The pilot, Captain Mark Bingley, and SAS trooper Joshua Porter, a passenger in the rear of the helicopter, were killed in the accident on November 29.
The co-pilot, code-named Captain No 7, who quickly exited the sinking aircraft and swam to the surface, said the emergency training conducted for Black Hawk crews did not take into account the aircraft sinking rapidly but simulated it floating or sinking slowly.
He described how he ignored training procedures and grabbed his breathing device, unbuckled his seat belt and exited the aircraft while it was sinking. In training drills, he had been told not to do anything until the aircraft stopped moving.
Because he was flying in the right-hand seat, he had a clear path to the surface as the helicopter sank left side down.
Captain No 7 said he swam between four and eight metres to the surface: "It was at a depth that required a considerable amount of swimming to get to the surface."
He said he thought the flight was normal until the aircraft hit the ship's deck. "I didn't have to say anything out of the ordinary," he said.
Earlier in the inquiry, SAS troopers travelling in the rear of the aircraft said they heard swearing and shouting between the pilot and the co-pilot before the impact. *(see note 1)
Asked what he thought had caused the accident, Captain No7 said that in his opinion, the aircraft suffered transient rotor droop - a drop in power to the rotor, not a physical droop of the blades - and dropped out of the air on to the deck.
He said that before the Black Hawk left the ship, the pilot had taken a GPS reading on the deck to confirm the position they needed to return to, but when the Black Hawk flew back to that GPS mark, the ship had drifted away.
"I believe the GPS mark was in error," Captain No 7 said.
"I believe the GPS waypoint was not where we were flying to.
"We may have been physically closer to the termination point."
Yesterday afternoon, a senior army flier who investigated the crash and ran multiple simulations of the fatal flight on simulators in Melbourne and Queensland said he had calculated that the ship had drifted 320m to the left while the Black Hawk was in the air.
Code-named Major 5, the pilot said it had been estimated that the Black Hawk had approached HMAS Kanimbla at 98 knots rather than the less than 80 knots the exercise required.
Major 5 said when the helicopter was approaching the ship and the co-pilot, using the GPS position, had estimated the distance at 800m, it was probably less than 700m from the ship.
"If you were aware of the GPS error, you would assess the situation visually and fly more conservatively," he said, "but it is difficult to gauge distances visually over water." ** (see note 2)
He said that if a pilot found he was too fast or too close, he could flare the aircraft (lift the nose) at a greater rate to slow it down, or opt to go around and make a second attempt.
Major 5 said that in the simulations of the landing he had carried out in flight simulators, he had found that the helicopter would not have crashed had it been flying five knots slower or carrying 1000lbs (454kg) less weight.
Computer generated film of the simulated landings was shown to the inquiry, but it was ruled too confidential for public release.
NOTES
*1 Several press releases at the time (which I cannot locate just now) referred to an argument between the co-pilot (who survived) and the captain (who died and who was the handling pilot) – as I recall, the co-pilot had told the handling pilot that, according to instruments, he was getting too close at their speed but the handling pilot had insisted on his own visual judgment being correct. Until I relocate the articles, I cannot be sure which instrument the co-pilot was referring too – I do seem to recall thinking at the time that it was the ship’s TACAN that was giving the distance – and this squares with the GPS giving a too far to go reading – the TACAN would have been where the ship actually was.
The accurate distance to go would have been far more critical for ZD576 as there was steeply rising ground ahead – and poorer visual clues if whatever instrument they were referring to was misleading them.
**2 And yet with a familiar ship as the destination in clear conditions.
A really irritating PPRuNer
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Echo 5,
thanks for the link. Good photo of Mike and some interesting comments.
Not too much longer, I hope!
Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
thanks for the link. Good photo of Mike and some interesting comments.
Not too much longer, I hope!
Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Seldomfitforpurpose
Sigh, you're right. I've probably been too tolerant. Walter has thicker skin than an elephant in chainmail. I'll not waste any more brain cells in trying to make him realise that his contributions are mostly like beachballs ........ pointless!
Walter
I guess I just didn't realise that those nice men in white coats let you guys have access to the Internet between sessions in the straightjacket. I'm going to let you have the honour of being the first person on my 'Ignore' list, as well as now featuring on my list of reasons for believing there to be no god (along with wasps, mosquitos, thrush, diarhoea, Sir William Wratten and rhubarb - sorry rhubarb fans......er......and diarhoea fans)!
Sigh, you're right. I've probably been too tolerant. Walter has thicker skin than an elephant in chainmail. I'll not waste any more brain cells in trying to make him realise that his contributions are mostly like beachballs ........ pointless!
Walter
I guess I just didn't realise that those nice men in white coats let you guys have access to the Internet between sessions in the straightjacket. I'm going to let you have the honour of being the first person on my 'Ignore' list, as well as now featuring on my list of reasons for believing there to be no god (along with wasps, mosquitos, thrush, diarhoea, Sir William Wratten and rhubarb - sorry rhubarb fans......er......and diarhoea fans)!
A really irritating PPRuNer
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Thank you for your kind words Seldomfitforpurpose.
Tomorrow, as you all know is the big day. Lord O'Neill, and a few others, will meet with Mr Browne and give a short presentation, followed by the handing over of our substantial document. We then wait - but hopefully not for too long.
For those of you able to get it, I am led to believe that Channel 4 News will be running a story on the meeting in their 7.00pm broadcast (UK time). It is hoped that the item will also end up on their website.
At this time, there is little else to say other than to thank you all for your continued support and good wishes. As always, I will get any new information or news to you all as soon as I hear anything.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Tomorrow, as you all know is the big day. Lord O'Neill, and a few others, will meet with Mr Browne and give a short presentation, followed by the handing over of our substantial document. We then wait - but hopefully not for too long.
For those of you able to get it, I am led to believe that Channel 4 News will be running a story on the meeting in their 7.00pm broadcast (UK time). It is hoped that the item will also end up on their website.
At this time, there is little else to say other than to thank you all for your continued support and good wishes. As always, I will get any new information or news to you all as soon as I hear anything.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
SFFP's sentiments endorsed 100%. Best wishes and good luck tomorrow, Brian. It is your stalwart and resolute leadership that encourages us all to see this through to a just conclusion.
Let Right Be Done!
Let Right Be Done!
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Best wishes indeed, Brian.
And don't forget these words from the Leader of the Opposition (which I have in writing):
Dear (BEagle)
Thank you for your further e-mails about the Chinook accident.
You ask whether I would take early action to reinstate the reputations of the pilots if I form the next Government.
As I mentioned in my previous letter to you, I do believe that the reputations of the two pilots deserve to be reinstated, as the Lords Select Committee recommended, and in the absence of any overwhelming argument presented to me as Prime Minister that is what I would do.
Your sincerely,
David Cameron
And don't forget these words from the Leader of the Opposition (which I have in writing):
Dear (BEagle)
Thank you for your further e-mails about the Chinook accident.
You ask whether I would take early action to reinstate the reputations of the pilots if I form the next Government.
As I mentioned in my previous letter to you, I do believe that the reputations of the two pilots deserve to be reinstated, as the Lords Select Committee recommended, and in the absence of any overwhelming argument presented to me as Prime Minister that is what I would do.
Your sincerely,
David Cameron
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Best wises for today, Brian. Though it appears our part-time SofS also has other matters on his plate today.
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An even more 'supportive' news article can be found at:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/7131045.stm
May this herald the end of this miscarriage of justice.
Last edited by meadowbank; 15th Jan 2008 at 14:57. Reason: typing error
Coming up in a moment on Channel 4 News.
If you missed it, Channel 4 +1 should show it at about 2042. You should find that on
Freeview (Channel 13), Sky Digital (Channel 135) and Virgin Media (Channel 143)
And if you miss that, C4 News say it will appear sometime this evening on
http://www.channel4.com/news/watchli..._missedtheshow
If you missed it, Channel 4 +1 should show it at about 2042. You should find that on
Freeview (Channel 13), Sky Digital (Channel 135) and Virgin Media (Channel 143)
And if you miss that, C4 News say it will appear sometime this evening on
http://www.channel4.com/news/watchli..._missedtheshow
Last edited by airsound; 15th Jan 2008 at 19:14. Reason: adding next opportunities