Christianity in the Military - more

[Thirteen-Twelve]

It would seem that since 'The Mistress' started the thread on this subject she didn't like my responses and has chosen to delete the thread.

Obviously her perogative but I think that this is an immature approach but maybe she is simply living up to her profile which states 'taking the mick out of you'. My experience is that those who can take the micky can rarely take any back, in fact take anything back.

No need now for me to repeat my response though in defence I do not believe I speak spherical genitalia. I do think that if a Padre jumps because the Stn Cdr tells him to I wonder if he might also start straining if the same Stn Crd says SH*T. All Padres Christians or just a person with a theological degree, the ones I met were all OK, the ones I didn't meet - how can I say?

Experience of church and taking part in church related activities does not make a person a christian anymore more than my spending time in my garage makes me a car and perhaps that is a good thing.

The issue is not whether there should be christians in the military but if those same christians ought to go to war and kill people. The issue is addressed, or at least was, in AP3392, vol 5 (Royal Air Force).

Comments from Moggie,Beagle, KBF1 sadly all lost unless you want me to re-type from hard copy. Comments from the mistress - perhaps best lost.

Christians a bunch of to**ers and hypocrites, sadly yes sometimes but not always. Christians prepared to kill and be killed, yes sometimes. People that go to church stuck up, arrogant and always right, sadly they exist. Christians prepared to die for you, yes in the right circumstances. Know a Christian who is 'always'right, arrogant and generally a pain in the ars* and something of a merchant banker - THEN TELL THEM TO THEIR FACE but don't assume they are typical of the type.

To the mistress - your understanding of a shiney tiger is different from mine, not necessarily wrong but certainly different.

[Rude C'man]

13-12 This is one of the best things I've read on Christiananity .. it sucks!!
Religion is the downfall of mankind , for Christ's sake(punn not intended) it's been the cause of most of our battles . I'm with you ,from my experiences most military padres have strings. M
Mistress , I think it was a poormove todelete the thread , if you dont like reading some of the responses then don't post. It's big boys rules , you know the score

[The Mistress]

It became clear late last night that I had inadvertently given a pulpit to the Mil Forum's version of OCB.

"Due to the almost impossible task of policing these forums I have decided that there will be no more politics or religion discussed on the website. You may consider this decision despotic and you may be right but then who gave you a vote? All current threads that I consider to be too politically or religiously sensitive will be closed and any new ones will be dealt with accordingly. Anyone objecting to this decision can make their complaints in writing to [email protected]. Replies may or may not be forthcoming, depending on my workload or mood. Being a despot has its rewards."

I re-read the statement given by Danny re religious threads. It says Forums, not Forum and embraces the whole site.

1312 - who yesterday, came across as arrogant, closed minded and a dictator - is in my mind a bully. If this person were on the end of my 'phone I would put the 'phone down. If he were on my doorstep I would shut the door. Here I can refuse to let him use my thread. I never declared myself to be a Christian. That was his interpretation. His opening gambit was to call me ignorant of the RAF and its' Church. I merely listed the things I had done. He'd done it even better, apparently

Now he's started his own thread, that's fine. Danny can decide what to do about it when he gets back from wherever he is. I am quite conscious that this is a privately owned site and I have not yet paid Danny to be something other than another number.

Yes, it is big boy's rules - Danny's rules.

13/12 - I agree, I don't know if that's a flight number or you refer to 13 Apostles and 12 Disciples, if the latter then you may be a lay preacher or, even a Padre yourself. Fine.

You were going down a path I know that Danny would dislike. You were touching on matters that I cannot answer at this time for legal reasons. Make the same points in a few month's time and it will be a different matter.

I thank moggie for his input. He comes across as a really nice chap - his assessment of my belief is quite correct. I also thank kbfi. For 13/12's info kbfi and I are not on snogging terms either. However, kb expressed his deeply held and very personal views in a reasoned and polite manner.

Beags was just taking the mick - good for him - it was intended to be a light hearted thread in the first place and look where it got to.

I am happy to continue this discussion - on YOUR thread

[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: The Mistress ]

[moggie]

Mistress - thanks for the kind words. My aim is not to be just seen as a nice guy (although that is a welcome bonus!) but to give my input in a reasoned and reasonable fashion.

For those who may have missed it now the original thread has gone, my last post was a response to one from Ralf Wiggum. He stated that as a christian he would be prepared to kill if soem "tin pot dictator" threatened his faith. I asked if that was all he would fight for - what about his country, his family and friends if they were under threat? I suggested that these things were more tangible than faith and therefore more relevant to me - but that I did not dismiss his faith as unreal, just stated that I needed something more solid to defend.

Many Christians have fought and died for their country, family, friends or faith - and I do not see any conflict between the the faith and the actions. However, I do have a problem with people who are in the military but would not actually fight BECAUSE of their faith. If that is the case - leave the fighting force and find something that does not put your conscience under pressure. It is the same as being a member of CND and the RAF (I know at least 1!) - those are incompatible wishes and the integrity of the service suffers.

I am reminded of an address my head of sixth form made at an assembly at school when I was 17. The subject was remembrance day and he started by asking us to remember and honour the dead but then launched an utterly unforgiveable attack upon those men and women who fought and died in war. What he missed when dishonouring their memory was that they were just the instruments of war - it was the politicians (who got no mention) who actually started/perpetuated these conflicts. The gentleman in question is no longer in teaching - he is the Vicar at the church in the village where my parents live.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions (and apologise for going off at a tangent!).

Edited for missed words!

[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

[The Mistress]

I am reliably informed by a friendly Pruner (not moggie) that 1312 was a Chinook Flight in Bosnia. Good, that's cleared up. I'm also glad to see that you have moderated your tone somewhat since last night, however ...

Having re-read the first post on this thread I'm reassured that I did the 'right' thing yesterday. Anything 1312 says is of value. Anything I say is worthless. He is right. I am wrong. He knows everything. I know nothing.

In your dreams 1312.

[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: The Mistress ]

[Cooinda]

Obviously I missed out on a rather lively thread. However from what I have read of this, it seems to have been perhaps too personal.

I agree with mogs, that if you don't like the heat then get out of the fire. The Services would be the better if the CND type he mentions was to be off. I also experienced similar just before the Gulf war started. Two gentlemen(?) made it known that they didn't join to go to war, they were subsequently held back at base.

To fight and die for family and friends is an easy decision to make. To do so for my country - yes, but with some reservations! For my belief? I believe that God is bigger than all we think Him capable of. Just as seeking answers and guidance by prayer is a part of my everyday life, if I felt called by God to do such a thing, then I would!

13/12 has made some good points, I have met hypocritical self proclaiming Christians. Indeed, everytime I look in the mirror I see one. We are mere men and women subject to the same pressures and distractions as anyone else. I believe that we live in a hypocritical world and subsequently all become tainted by it.



[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: Cooinda ]

[Tigs]

This was potentially a good thread but seems to have gotten a little petty. The Mistress, are you really The Mistress or as it seems more like The Little Madam? Grow up! We know that you are entitled to hang up the phone if someone is giving you grief, but you would probably know that they were going to and not call them anyway. You started a thread on a public forum and you then delete it because you don't like the response. If people have a view, it does not matter if it is right or wrong, it is their perception, and they are entitled to it. Furthermore your comments concerning Danny sound completely obsequious. I don't know what Danny said because you deleted it! But you can't hide behind the moderators for something you started.
No hard feelings eh! Its just my perceptions.

[The Mistress]

What Danny said is in quotes above. I did not delete it at all - I have cut and pasted it from Jet Blast. Read the thread properly before jumping on someone. That was precisely 1312's problem yesterday. He very quickly became very offensive over something I never said My views on religion in fact border on the atheist side of the Church of England. I would never declare myself a Christian. I was born into and raised in the Church of England, that's all.

I have been harangued outside my own home by an Evangelist whom I once thought of as a friend. That experience taught me never to shove my religious views (or lack of) down anyone else's throat. It's truly nauseating to be on the receiving end when you don't agree.

He also now is telling me what the issue was! I know what my original post said and what my original point was. 1312 clearly didn't.

If you want to call me names fine, that puts your maturity into question. Yes, this is a public forum and that is precisely why I deleted the thread! I am entitled to a point of view without the abuse I received yesterday.

I will not be bullied into silence by 1312 or by you. Nor should any other Pruner be squeezed out because they disagree with someone who chooses to be rude to them.

When I said 1312 was speaking bolleaux - I meant his personal comments about me, and that's all. His views on the Church are his own and he is entitled to state them. His personal comments about me are precisely that and I will deal with them as I choose.

What would you like me to put on my personal profile - my full name, address and telephone number? After you

[Hornetboy]

RAAF interview today I was asked about my readiness to kill in a war....I mentioned something about the "justness of war" and "justness in war" that I just read here a couple of days ago that I thought really made sense....the guy probably just wanted me to say "yes I would be ready to kill"....anyways it sounded good....too bad I can't remember the name of the bloke that originally imparted the knowledge. Thanks anyway!

[The Bonk]

Cool wet grass....cool wet grass.....cool wet grass....hey guys, say after me....cool wet grass.....cool wet grass...

There ain't a need for this......most people play this site as a bar/happy hour.....so if you don't like the guy/girl thats talking to you walk away. If you don't like the thread then don't post/leave.

Mistress.....you walked away and took your conversation with you because you were fed up with the guy/girl. Tigs/1312, you are now following Mistress around the bar trying to get the conversation going again.

Lads/Lasses ....its her right to walk away. You are appearing like the blown out teenagers that are now shouting across the bar....I am right ....I am right...listen to me I am right (I am sure that I hear the stamping of feet and I'll scheem and scheem until I'm schick in there somewhere!).

Mate who cares, just leave the girl alone, for whatever reason she does not want to talk about it anymore.

Remember...cool wet grass....cool wet grass....cool wet grass.....cool wet grass

[tony draper]

Difficult to light, difficult to light,
difficult to light, difficult to light.

[Tigs]

Bonk, The Mistress(my apologies I never meant to call you names! - Honest)

Agreed - Cool Wet Grass, Cool Wet Grass!

Regards

Tigs

[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: Tigs ]

[Flatus Veteranus]

Which all goes to prove the wisdom of the old rule against discussing ladies or religion in the bar. Stick to sex and motorcars, chaps and chappies!

[Thirteen-Twelve]

I don't think I need a pulpit or am in danger of becoming another OCB and the low number of my postings bears me out on both points.

I must be on the fervent side of Christianity because along with the church I attended, was subject to a HQ P&SS investigation. I never said I must be right always but the mistress did open with a insult and openly attempted to rubbish my response

If I wanted to prove I was right I would mobilise the god squad (every station has one and you all know someone in it) - remember when the Snow Drops took exception to comments in this forum and truly hijacked a topic?

No, I simply thought that the mistress was using a valid question on a valid forum to take a pot shot at Christians in the military. No harm in taking a pot shot it happens to Christians all the time but if you are going to do it stay the distance rather than pretend it never happened when the incoming fire hits its mark. And, never remove the evidence as part of the denial - prove me wrong and get the original topic restored?

Hi to Danny - this is a topic about Christians in the military in the CONTEXT of killing whether in a FJ, chopper or whatever though aircraft aside, if you carry a pistol/rifle you might have to decide whether to use it or not one day as much as press a button to take a life/lives another way. I think this is a serious issue that is relevant not just to christians but everyone as someone previously suggested (I guess Budists have the Q & A all sewed up). You'll know if I am wrong because Danny will say he is deleting the topic.

Moggie as I said before, AP3392, Vol 5 has the answers and would expect other countries military have similar published guidance. Well worth a read.

1312 - not a secret but not what anyone guessed and not that interesting if I explained.

In these troubled times I think there is a valid question here worth serious debate and incidents including the Frog FJ that intercepted a civy jet proves the point just as much as the airline that was shot down by the Russians some years ago. Christians have a view on this whether in the military or not if you the only Christians you have met were religious bigots you need to look a bit harder (though sadly, perhaps, not at the station church).

[The Bonk]

Cool wet grass....cool wet grass...I am not a terrier....cool wet grass ....cool wet grass....

[D-IFF_ident]

'Fraid I missed the original thread. However, I thought I'd throw my opinions into the fray anyway. I'm assuming the debate should be about the place of the God Squad in the RAF? Then I have 2 opinions:

1. Religion is the single greastest cause of armed conflict since man learned to communicate. All those who have any religious beliefs need to evolve to the level of the rest of us.

2. Padres have an important role in the RAF; when they lose their faith then I hope we retain their services as Welfare Officers. Padres have awesome power - they can ground a pilot quicker than a doctor can.

I spent 2 years arguing a welfare case through 'the approriate channels', culminating in a ministerial enquiry from the then Armed Forces Minister; the impolite reply I received from a senior Naval Officer in Whitehall did not solve the problem. After a chat with the local Padre, the whole thing was sorted out in less than 24 hours. God bless 'em!

[The Mistress]

1312 - a QR?

1. I'm still here. I'm not running anywhere. How dare you even suggest otherwise.

2. You seem to feel that you are a victim. You've been the subject of an investigation. Snap. Try f*cking witch hunt, that would be nearer the mark! Try it TWICE and see how it feels.

3. Yes, I know my local God Squad only too well. I child minded for them for hundreds of hours. Fed their children - offered to take them out on outings etc - all for nought pounds and nought pence. I did it because I thought they were friends and neighbours. When I needed THEM they sh@t on me from a great height. D*x, *ng*s, R*b, you know who you are. I'll never forgive your deeds or your words because they are, simply, unforgivable.

4. My opening question seems to have offended you. After all you have said to me that's just tough sh*t.

5. My experience of spineless, pathetic excuses for human beings hiding behind Christianity extends beyond my local RAF Church to the Church in my local town and their associates.

I'm not too keen on a local Sci-Fi writer either. But there you go.

Unfortunately, I seem to have come across a large number of people who seem to have great difficulty in separating fact from untrue malicious gossip from half-baked anorexic idiots. Hey, but that's local, personal, and 1312 doesn't know what I'm talking about

Now, 1312, if you want the original topic restored, write to the Moderators and do it yourself.

Is that clear enough?

Yours with love and compassion TM

[The Bonk]

okay, I'll say it faster...cool wet grass....cool wet grass....cool wet grass...cool wet grass....cool wet grass...cool wet grass....cool wet grass...cool wet grass....

COOL WET GRASS......

[The Mistress]

Bonk

I love you.

I would offer to have your babies, except I've been neutered.

You are sensible. You are calm. You are reasonable.

Shame there aren't more like you around.

[KD]

I think we can all take something away from this

1) Religion is the cause of more arguments than anything else.

2) Everyone has their own "thought belief" system which tends to be rigid and closed to discussion. It is not their belief that causes conflict but rather a lack of understanding by other people of their belief system. Bottom line ? Agree to disagree. It`s a deep psychological thory that can be explained with examples if needs be .

3) Cool wet grass solves everything . . .cept religious arguments.

Anyone fancy another Pint ?