Aircrews are at the end of their tether
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Weasel of Grimness,
rather than completely repeat myself, I'd like to refer you to my previous post...
The bottom line is that this kind of temporary accom. may well be the way of the future, however we MUST take a leaf out of the 'USAF Guide to Camping'. It really won't involve much more in the way of expense, but for the reduction in fatigue, and increase in morale, it would be money very well spent.
Adios Muchachos
rather than completely repeat myself, I'd like to refer you to my previous post...
The bottom line is that this kind of temporary accom. may well be the way of the future, however we MUST take a leaf out of the 'USAF Guide to Camping'. It really won't involve much more in the way of expense, but for the reduction in fatigue, and increase in morale, it would be money very well spent.
Adios Muchachos
Points taken chaps. Yes, if this is the way of the future then we do need to invest in better tentage etc. Issue 12x12 tents are no good, especially in hot climates.
The new way of thinking within the government and MoD indicates that this short notice camping affair will become the norm.
Suppose the alternative is a trip to Cotswold Camping to buy me own!
The new way of thinking within the government and MoD indicates that this short notice camping affair will become the norm.
Suppose the alternative is a trip to Cotswold Camping to buy me own!
Join Date: Jun 2001
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FFS
Can nobody see past the hotac/rates crap to the actual nub of the argument here??
Move the tents off the airfield to somewhere quieter. Do not put different types/crews in the same tent. Give people a chance to get some decent sleep.
Blithering on about the army and rotary boys doing it is a waste of your typing and our time.
I could not give a toss where I sleep as long as I can get the chance of getting at least a couple of hours of continuous sleep without a) half the people in the tent getting up and crashing about to go flying and b)BA123 getting airborne about 10ft from my bed!
Can nobody see past the hotac/rates crap to the actual nub of the argument here??
Move the tents off the airfield to somewhere quieter. Do not put different types/crews in the same tent. Give people a chance to get some decent sleep.
Blithering on about the army and rotary boys doing it is a waste of your typing and our time.
I could not give a toss where I sleep as long as I can get the chance of getting at least a couple of hours of continuous sleep without a) half the people in the tent getting up and crashing about to go flying and b)BA123 getting airborne about 10ft from my bed!
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Having sat on the fence for a while now it's time to get off. It's not the tents or the runway that i think is the problem (after a long night/day trip and being woken at O'christ 00 by jets taking off) It is the support we get from our Seniors/supervisors. (Non crew) They seem afraid to make a decision for the benifit of all. We have crews who don't know what they are doing from one minute to the next because of it. Spend some money on the guys and think about their needs and not on G+T parties (for those in the UK) take in the big picture. Life may get better in the long term. I have no grief with living in a tent. The situation warrants it. But, explain why movers are in hotels not far away while Operational crews are in tents and you may see the point of the argument. Positive leadership is required. It appears that the job is being done despite the leadership not because of it.
"Make it so"
"Make it so"
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Good man grimweasel. Get yourself down there and slap them all very hard - they deserve it. 38 group, or whathever you call yourselves these days, you all need a very big kick in the b0llocks. STOP BLEATING and get on with it.
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How dare you! All those not currently involved in Op Veritas sorties have no right to critisise the views of those doing a bl***y good job out there. If the crews feel they have a problem then it is our duty to LISTEN to the men on the spot!!!! I am more than irate at those imply that the crews on the AAR force are whingers. The force has been directly involved in almost every major air campaign since the Falklands and I think they know when things are not right. I wish the remfs would pay attention to the problem or get some time in!!!
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Jumping off the same fence as Skywatcher, I thought I'd put my tuppenceworth back in.
It takes more than a few aircrew to ensure the safety of flight. There are many people who play an integral part in ensuring that aircraft (be it fast pointy things, wobbly heads or AT) operate safely and effectively. All these people need to be sharp and well supported. The problem as I see it is that as soon as anyone mentions the "H" word, they have lost the argument. Having spent a couple of years working in **** with the SH force, I realised that it was actually quite easy to get a good nights sleep even if we were right next to the runway. The answer then, as now, was ear plugs. However, the key point to note is that, whilst we all should accept poor living conditions at the commencement of a deployment, it gets somewhat irritating and demoralising when, 2 months later, the UK military are still living in the same poor conditions whilst all our coalition partners have invested in reasonable and relatively comfortable infrastructure. An example of this was when the RAF det in Albania in 1999 had to beg the Italian Army for use of their mobile shower facilities as the hugely supportive UK Govenment had failed to invest in the most basic of support assets.
[Oops - spelling]
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]
It takes more than a few aircrew to ensure the safety of flight. There are many people who play an integral part in ensuring that aircraft (be it fast pointy things, wobbly heads or AT) operate safely and effectively. All these people need to be sharp and well supported. The problem as I see it is that as soon as anyone mentions the "H" word, they have lost the argument. Having spent a couple of years working in **** with the SH force, I realised that it was actually quite easy to get a good nights sleep even if we were right next to the runway. The answer then, as now, was ear plugs. However, the key point to note is that, whilst we all should accept poor living conditions at the commencement of a deployment, it gets somewhat irritating and demoralising when, 2 months later, the UK military are still living in the same poor conditions whilst all our coalition partners have invested in reasonable and relatively comfortable infrastructure. An example of this was when the RAF det in Albania in 1999 had to beg the Italian Army for use of their mobile shower facilities as the hugely supportive UK Govenment had failed to invest in the most basic of support assets.
[Oops - spelling]
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]
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I'm honestly puzzled. Most airfields are big places. The Middle Eastern ones I've been to were huge. There are obviously reasons you can't move these tents somewhere sensible, and reorganise the allocation to avoid tripping over each other, and sling a few spare 12x12s in the back of the next AT/AAR asset arriving from UK to spread out a bit - otherwise it would have been done. But what are the reasons? Please tell.
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Words fail me.
Although I admit my previous comments to WWW may have appeared to be in the "I'm harder than you" vein, they were intended to jovially point out that every aircraft type/role has it's shortcomings.
Subsequent comments serve to show that there are sadly those who STILL think the "When I were a lad...." argument is sufficient to off-set serious shortcomings in teh whole way we do business when we go camping. If we applied the same argument to our aircraft surely we'd be flying Spitfires,Dakotas, Sunderlands and Belvederes, which actually has a quirky appeal all of it's own, but assumes the same attitude to improvement of our little lot, that attitude being "If it was good enough yesterday, it must be good enough today" and finally to all those who simply plunge their oh-so-noble heads in the sand (no pun intended) and say "Stop bleating and get on with it"....I hope your tree lights fail on Christmas morning.
Although I admit my previous comments to WWW may have appeared to be in the "I'm harder than you" vein, they were intended to jovially point out that every aircraft type/role has it's shortcomings.
Subsequent comments serve to show that there are sadly those who STILL think the "When I were a lad...." argument is sufficient to off-set serious shortcomings in teh whole way we do business when we go camping. If we applied the same argument to our aircraft surely we'd be flying Spitfires,Dakotas, Sunderlands and Belvederes, which actually has a quirky appeal all of it's own, but assumes the same attitude to improvement of our little lot, that attitude being "If it was good enough yesterday, it must be good enough today" and finally to all those who simply plunge their oh-so-noble heads in the sand (no pun intended) and say "Stop bleating and get on with it"....I hope your tree lights fail on Christmas morning.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Guys you have my sympathy having to live there in tents, I spent 4 years out there and one night in a tent was enough. If the powers to be will not put you in Hotac nd it seems from these posts that they will not, have you tried to get them to move the tents up to Lansab, the RAFO accomadation base 15 mins up the road, at least there you will have some of the home comforts, and I am sure the messes up there would appreciate you being there. During Gulf war 1 there were Nim crews based there in some of the RAFO accomodation. It may not be the best solution it may already have been looked at but if it gives you guys a break it may just be worth looking at.
Thats all.
Thats all.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Skywatcher -I could not agree with you more.
The leadership, lack of is, exactly the problem here. The idiots we have back at the sqn think that everything is hunky dory and there is no fatigue problem. In addition IFS is NOT doing it's job and I for one will never again submit a condor or human factors report. Yes IFS we are having witch hunts back here in Lincs, so much for your empty promises.
Rules designed for Flight Safety are not being bent, they are being broken. To all those who say "It's down to the individual to refuse to fly etc etc" I say this:
A fine sentiment, but human nature being what it is, it is difficult to carry it out. Especially in the bully boy atmosphere prevailing in theatre at the moment. Day has already stated his policy on this matter.
This thread isn't about aircrew bleating about a lack of Hotac/Rates. It's about providing the best resources for the best Airforce in the world to once again excel. Is it really to much to expect to be able to get a good day/nights sleep whilst on Ops?
We really are lions led by complete imbeciles. Nothing will be done to correct matters and senior officers will continue to lie and cheat to get the job done, whilst looking good.
" A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men, but a disgruntled employee can cause more damage than a 1000 volunteers"
The leadership, lack of is, exactly the problem here. The idiots we have back at the sqn think that everything is hunky dory and there is no fatigue problem. In addition IFS is NOT doing it's job and I for one will never again submit a condor or human factors report. Yes IFS we are having witch hunts back here in Lincs, so much for your empty promises.
Rules designed for Flight Safety are not being bent, they are being broken. To all those who say "It's down to the individual to refuse to fly etc etc" I say this:
A fine sentiment, but human nature being what it is, it is difficult to carry it out. Especially in the bully boy atmosphere prevailing in theatre at the moment. Day has already stated his policy on this matter.
This thread isn't about aircrew bleating about a lack of Hotac/Rates. It's about providing the best resources for the best Airforce in the world to once again excel. Is it really to much to expect to be able to get a good day/nights sleep whilst on Ops?
We really are lions led by complete imbeciles. Nothing will be done to correct matters and senior officers will continue to lie and cheat to get the job done, whilst looking good.
" A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men, but a disgruntled employee can cause more damage than a 1000 volunteers"
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I must say that the tent issue is only a problem in the fact that is poorly situated. In times of conflict we have to get on with the job in hand, as the guys on the ground need our support. However, there is no excuse for making things miserable for ourselves and this is where some money should be spent. As was said in an earlier post, there are things that could be done to improve conditions at 4077. In this conflict as in theGulf conflict, there are some of us who would like to go and do the job we have been trained for, instead of sucking the currency/6hrs/SAR tit (which we have also been trained for) back at home.
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At Incirlik in 92/93, it was very hot. Our ground crew were accommodated in tents, but they had air conditioning, and nearby facilities. On my first detachment there, we (aircrew) were in accom blocks, not air conditioned. The tents were ok. They were well away from the runway. Now, I don't know what this particular airfield is like, but as someone has already mentioned, airfields are BIG places. So, as someone else has already asked, why can't decent tents with good "facilities" be placed in a quiet spot. Guys, for all the arguments about "when I was in tents etc" (and I've been there too), this is just ludicrous. I'm a civvy now, and I want my govt to send our people with the best support there is. Not only for the most important reason of so they can best do their job, but so they know that their countrymen back home give a --it about them. We are expecting these fine people to do a job for us. Come on CAS, for squires sake send the guys some decent tents and put them somewhere they can get some sleep. I despair sometimes.
Good luck you guys, you're in a difficult position, and you shouldn't have to worry about this nonsense.
I could mention cumulative fatigue, and devisiveness, and leading by example. Please stop the willy waving arguments. I'm sure lots of us have a wardrobe of teeshirts. These guys/girls need our support.
Good luck you guys, you're in a difficult position, and you shouldn't have to worry about this nonsense.
I could mention cumulative fatigue, and devisiveness, and leading by example. Please stop the willy waving arguments. I'm sure lots of us have a wardrobe of teeshirts. These guys/girls need our support.
Mowgli - an excellent post. The 'real' tents at Incirlik are still in use and some people have been going there for 10 years now due to the in-theatre mission creep. But, as you rightly stated, they are of sound construction, properly sited and the guys at least have hot water! Messing facilities are also entirely satis - and anyone can get a decent night's sleep.
But the situation in Onan is totally different - and is a festering sore which needs urgent treatment.
Incidentally, now that there's more space in the BFOT, I trust that every visiting senior officer is staying there....
But the situation in Onan is totally different - and is a festering sore which needs urgent treatment.
Incidentally, now that there's more space in the BFOT, I trust that every visiting senior officer is staying there....
