Aircrews are at the end of their tether
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Nobody has yet commented on the remarks made by Pylot. Here are a few numbers for your consideration.
The imprest manual states that where PIE is not payed, LOA should be. In the early days of the exercise, the Lyneham imprest office paid transit crews the allowance at Thumrait, but were told to desist because "quote". "The extensive welfare package available to the Detachment is also available to them."
LOA in Oman, varies from around £6 per diem for an SAC to £15 for a Gp Capt. So the ba$tar£ ac STC accounts who arbitrarily removed LOA saved the following (approx)during the Exercise:
15,000(people)x 42daysx £9(av daily LOA) =£5,670,000.
Assuming the Operation continues for 6 months with around 4000 personnel there is still another 4000x 30x 6x £9 =£6,480,000 to be saved. Has any of you seen a welfare package worth remotely the £60 per week to you? I certainly haven't.
If you steal on a small scale, you are a larcenist. If you steal on a grand scale you are an economist. So congratulations, sir, you will probably be promoted. Had you merely pilferred all our money you would be in Colchester.
We have all argued the stupidity of the "dense pack" operation of aircrew from tents. This is why no one is prepared to listen.
200(aircrew)x6months(180)x£100(food/acc)= lots.
Get the message. Noboby cares about flight safety or operational efficiency or crew comfort. If they did care and field operations were essential, do you really think that after 4 months we couldn't find portocabins or more tents or at least something better than the " boil in a bag showers" It is all down to £sd.
As for Gp and IFS, they have been spineless throughout. We have far too many Koalas at the top of the tree telling Buff and his cronies how happy we all are and no one listening.
The imprest manual states that where PIE is not payed, LOA should be. In the early days of the exercise, the Lyneham imprest office paid transit crews the allowance at Thumrait, but were told to desist because "quote". "The extensive welfare package available to the Detachment is also available to them."
LOA in Oman, varies from around £6 per diem for an SAC to £15 for a Gp Capt. So the ba$tar£ ac STC accounts who arbitrarily removed LOA saved the following (approx)during the Exercise:
15,000(people)x 42daysx £9(av daily LOA) =£5,670,000.
Assuming the Operation continues for 6 months with around 4000 personnel there is still another 4000x 30x 6x £9 =£6,480,000 to be saved. Has any of you seen a welfare package worth remotely the £60 per week to you? I certainly haven't.
If you steal on a small scale, you are a larcenist. If you steal on a grand scale you are an economist. So congratulations, sir, you will probably be promoted. Had you merely pilferred all our money you would be in Colchester.
We have all argued the stupidity of the "dense pack" operation of aircrew from tents. This is why no one is prepared to listen.
200(aircrew)x6months(180)x£100(food/acc)= lots.
Get the message. Noboby cares about flight safety or operational efficiency or crew comfort. If they did care and field operations were essential, do you really think that after 4 months we couldn't find portocabins or more tents or at least something better than the " boil in a bag showers" It is all down to £sd.
As for Gp and IFS, they have been spineless throughout. We have far too many Koalas at the top of the tree telling Buff and his cronies how happy we all are and no one listening.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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I absolutely concur especially about IFS. I submitted a HFOR whilst on SS2. Nothing has been done to alleviate any of the fatigue/crew rest problems that existed to cause my incident!! I will not bother to ever again submit a HFOR. Complete waste of space!!
" A volunteer is woth 10 pressed men.
But a disgruntled employee can do more damge than 1000 pressed men!!
"
" A volunteer is woth 10 pressed men.
But a disgruntled employee can do more damge than 1000 pressed men!!
"
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Just re - checked my figures, I have under estimated the ammount of the larceny. The correct field condition LOA is as follows:
SAC £8.86 Sgt £10.56 Master £12.25 Flt Lt £9.81 Gp Capt £14.97. Can't say I understand all the anomolies but the message is clear. Just where is our money?
SAC £8.86 Sgt £10.56 Master £12.25 Flt Lt £9.81 Gp Capt £14.97. Can't say I understand all the anomolies but the message is clear. Just where is our money?
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Can some one tell the same penny pitching accountant who referred to the "extensive welfare package" in his/her defence of cost-cutting in Oman to ask any of the rotary guys on SS2 what kind of welfare package THEY saw?
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The state of the RAF may well be due to those at the top kow-towing to Bliar and Brown, not knowing what is really going on and being too bothered about nice soft jobs in industry when they leave, to stand up for the people who do the work and take the rubbish that is dished out in so many aspects of life in the RAF today.
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I think TURNBULL has a point. Does anyone know what allowances/conditions/'Extensive Welfare Package' 
(I'm sorry but that makes me laugh every time I here it, usually from a Senior Officer strangely) other Dets/Ops are receiving?
One of the reasons that keeps being used as to why we are still in tents is, the 'local threat'. B&ll*cks, this is a moderate country with which we have had good relations for a number of years, I've been going to Oman for the past decade and it's one of the best places we get to go to, I'd personally be insulted if I were an Omani. The 'threat' are extremists/terrorists not the nations general population and as such is no greater than at home.
At a recent presentation for the wives the question was asked 'If Saif Sareea had not been going on where would our husbands be staying', replied by the Staish 'Initially they would be in hotels, but would eventually move into tents'. I'd suggest not. It took 2 years to plan SS2 just to prove a point, and we're still in tents to continue proving that point.
I don't think we can argue about staying in tents, as much as I'd like to, but where those tents are is another matter. Another comment from this brief was 'They'll get a good nights sleep every 3rd night because they'll be so knackered' this from someone who has rotated back, if that is not a flight safety issue in itself I hate to think is. And I don't just refer to us aircrew, the groundies are equally important in flight safety as ourselves. We all need a decent nights rest, it's that simple yet our solution is 'Take some ear plugs'.
Do I sound disillusioned? I am. I don't know where the comment was first made or by whom but, 'It's not about the money' and to a large part it isn't, it's about how we treat and look after our people. Having said that this entire issue of LOA is a disgrace.
Still could be worse.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
Edited beacuse I can't speel.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
(I'm sorry but that makes me laugh every time I here it, usually from a Senior Officer strangely) other Dets/Ops are receiving?One of the reasons that keeps being used as to why we are still in tents is, the 'local threat'. B&ll*cks, this is a moderate country with which we have had good relations for a number of years, I've been going to Oman for the past decade and it's one of the best places we get to go to, I'd personally be insulted if I were an Omani. The 'threat' are extremists/terrorists not the nations general population and as such is no greater than at home.
At a recent presentation for the wives the question was asked 'If Saif Sareea had not been going on where would our husbands be staying', replied by the Staish 'Initially they would be in hotels, but would eventually move into tents'. I'd suggest not. It took 2 years to plan SS2 just to prove a point, and we're still in tents to continue proving that point.
I don't think we can argue about staying in tents, as much as I'd like to, but where those tents are is another matter. Another comment from this brief was 'They'll get a good nights sleep every 3rd night because they'll be so knackered' this from someone who has rotated back, if that is not a flight safety issue in itself I hate to think is.
And I don't just refer to us aircrew, the groundies are equally important in flight safety as ourselves. We all need a decent nights rest, it's that simple yet our solution is 'Take some ear plugs'.Do I sound disillusioned? I am. I don't know where the comment was first made or by whom but, 'It's not about the money' and to a large part it isn't, it's about how we treat and look after our people. Having said that this entire issue of LOA is a disgrace.
Still could be worse.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
Edited beacuse I can't speel.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
Now there's a bleat in SROs saying that the RAF's stock of expeditionary equipment such as sleeping bags is becoming critical.....
I also hear that a Big Cheese is demanding that money be spent on 'improvements' for our desert campers, (not HOTAC though.....) but the pongo-in-charge won't budge. Well - what a surprise!
I also hear that a Big Cheese is demanding that money be spent on 'improvements' for our desert campers, (not HOTAC though.....) but the pongo-in-charge won't budge. Well - what a surprise!
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We were briefed that funds to improve the domestic sight (several million) had been approved but the money would be drip fed instead of getting all the work done at once.
Whoever decided that one must be hoping that this will all finish soon so they can say how much money they saved the RAF, got to be a promotion there for the taking .
I wonder how bods have 'Career' lights flashing in front of them?
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
A spell & grammer checker would be really handy.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
Whoever decided that one must be hoping that this will all finish soon so they can say how much money they saved the RAF, got to be a promotion there for the taking
.I wonder how bods have 'Career' lights flashing in front of them?
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
A spell & grammer checker would be really handy.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
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I have just come back from the said place that has filled this subject and one the whole the comments are very reasonable. I feel as though I should add some thoughts though.
1. The comments about whinging are completely unfounded as people are putting up with the tents. As mentioned before, it is the quantity of personnel and lack of ac which is making living conditions unbearable. To top this though, the jets getting airborne at all hours are making it impossible to get some sleep.
2. As mentioned before, someone could be brave and say they won't fly due to fatigue. The problem is we are all too proud (or stupid) to do this.
3. Also just starting is the normalisation of the camp. Having a quality assesment eng off is obviously a big help to all the ground troops that are working all hours
to keep us flying.......not! obviously the air rank don't even trust the guys to do their job either any more!!!
To top this all though, I hear AOC2 has decreed that all transit crews are to stay in hotels as they may get too tired in tents. This was shown during end ex of SSII, when all at crews were in fact in hotels when we were paying to have a couple of hours by the pool after being on op sorties........thanks.
Basically, if the situation continues, there will be an accident very soon. I know of several condors and personal letters to IFS, all with no reply. I also know now that there are several people off at the first opportunity, cause they have just had enough after many many happy years in the service.
Wake up and face the facts guys. It will end in tears. Seeing how the US so it across the road has shown what can be done provided with a few penny's. We could lose a lot more than sleep soon.
So what you're saying seems to be:
1. An exercise was designed called Saif Sareea II. It was supposed to show how the UK could respond quickly to an out of area committment.
2. On 11 Sep, a mad idiot called bin-Laden incited a terrorist outrage on the USA. Unable to compete on miltary terms, his murderers attacked innocent civilians.
3. The decison was made to mount OP VERITAS in support of the US. Coincidentally it was possible to co-locate assets with the exercise SSII players.
4. This caused huge pressure on the barely adequate tent accommodation - which now had to cope with far more people for far longer than originally intended. But the Brits who were involved got on with the job as best they could, as they were eager to do whatever was needed to help those who had adequately capable aircraft to sort out the terrorists in Afghanistan.
5. Saif Sareea II ended, the journos took all their pictures of 'our chaps in the desert' and went home. But the wretched tents stayed.
6. Contrary to all normal Flight Safety, air and groundcrews are still being kept in conditions hitherto unencountered since the Allied TAF pushed through Europe over 50 years ago. Purely due to the MoD beancounters' unwillingness to spend money on adequate creature comforts - which are both plentiful and locally available.
7. But now those who were sent have had enough. They know that they're being ignored and that they're being shafted by their Squirearchy. They also know that it won't be long before the airlines start picking up again; many would like to continue to serve in the RAF, but are utterly and completely disillusioned with the treatment they are receiving for no reasonable military need.
Have I understood what you've been saying correctly, chaps?
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
1. An exercise was designed called Saif Sareea II. It was supposed to show how the UK could respond quickly to an out of area committment.
2. On 11 Sep, a mad idiot called bin-Laden incited a terrorist outrage on the USA. Unable to compete on miltary terms, his murderers attacked innocent civilians.
3. The decison was made to mount OP VERITAS in support of the US. Coincidentally it was possible to co-locate assets with the exercise SSII players.
4. This caused huge pressure on the barely adequate tent accommodation - which now had to cope with far more people for far longer than originally intended. But the Brits who were involved got on with the job as best they could, as they were eager to do whatever was needed to help those who had adequately capable aircraft to sort out the terrorists in Afghanistan.
5. Saif Sareea II ended, the journos took all their pictures of 'our chaps in the desert' and went home. But the wretched tents stayed.
6. Contrary to all normal Flight Safety, air and groundcrews are still being kept in conditions hitherto unencountered since the Allied TAF pushed through Europe over 50 years ago. Purely due to the MoD beancounters' unwillingness to spend money on adequate creature comforts - which are both plentiful and locally available.
7. But now those who were sent have had enough. They know that they're being ignored and that they're being shafted by their Squirearchy. They also know that it won't be long before the airlines start picking up again; many would like to continue to serve in the RAF, but are utterly and completely disillusioned with the treatment they are receiving for no reasonable military need.
Have I understood what you've been saying correctly, chaps?
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
Thread Starter
Sleeping in a tent as part of a big Ex like SS2 when one of the objectives was to prove that the logistics of mounting such an event is feasible is one thing, however unpopular it may have been. But the Operation mounted on the back of the exercise is another. I suspect the Ex flying rate was not as intense as the Op - on which I gather the crews were flying the max 120 in 28. Cancelling a Ex sortie due to fatigue is no big deal. The Op is different.
The letter which sparked this debate was about the Op. It is inexcuseable to place such pressures on the crews when a viable alternative to the situation which could (and nearly did on one occaision I gather) so severely compromise flight safety.
A CEO of a major airline in the States some years back commented after his airline's third crash in a year "If you think flight safety is expensive - try the cost of an accident!"
The letter which sparked this debate was about the Op. It is inexcuseable to place such pressures on the crews when a viable alternative to the situation which could (and nearly did on one occaision I gather) so severely compromise flight safety.
A CEO of a major airline in the States some years back commented after his airline's third crash in a year "If you think flight safety is expensive - try the cost of an accident!"
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Not logged on for a while but fascinated to catch up - I can hardly wait to get back out there. (Not the same as Dubai eh Tony?)
A name for the place - how's about "Camp Somewhere Horrible In The Hot, Omani, Loud Environment".
I had heard that we were paying more for the tents than it would have cost to put us up in hotac - especially considering that most of those not directly working with a/c or ops could then be sent home.
As to the news that civvies are being paid to run this ******** for years to come - how long do HMG expect us to be out there? I know that it could be for quite some time but Mullah Omar's regime don't look too steady and one bomb could do it for bin Liner.
If only I'd done better in pilot training!!!
A name for the place - how's about "Camp Somewhere Horrible In The Hot, Omani, Loud Environment".
I had heard that we were paying more for the tents than it would have cost to put us up in hotac - especially considering that most of those not directly working with a/c or ops could then be sent home.
As to the news that civvies are being paid to run this ******** for years to come - how long do HMG expect us to be out there? I know that it could be for quite some time but Mullah Omar's regime don't look too steady and one bomb could do it for bin Liner.
If only I'd done better in pilot training!!!
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God forbid that an accident does happen, but just imagine the field day that the lawyers will have with the RAF.
I honestly believe that it will take a lost aircraft before the upper echelons will take heed. What a sh*te state of affairs.
I honestly believe that it will take a lost aircraft before the upper echelons will take heed. What a sh*te state of affairs.
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This is great entertainment, listening to the bleating of the molly-coddled masses of the fixed-wing world. **** happens guys - get on with it. Didn't you have lazy-man boilers in those 5-star hotels you've been gloating about for years? Well tough t1tty, you have now. Stop f*uckin' whining.
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As if my wife didn't have enough to worry about with me out the door headed for a conflict, she has to contend with an organisation that is reluctant to afford due care to its own people, is more concerned about the money than about them, doesn't appear to be backing them up through independant means (IFS non replies), but worried aviators are talking here about serious flight safety issues.
She is now "not amused".
Anyone got the number of a good solicitor for in case I don't come home?
She is now "not amused".
Anyone got the number of a good solicitor for in case I don't come home?
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Hengist Pod - You miss the point of this thread, so go some where else you little rotary toad
Mainiac 55 - If an accident happens then all that will happen is our airships will say we have broken crew duty/flight safety rules and the accident was therefore crew error!
We can't win this one, BUT THEY can't win the retention/recruitment one!!
"A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men, but a disgruntled employee can cause more damage than a 1000 pressed men!"
Mainiac 55 - If an accident happens then all that will happen is our airships will say we have broken crew duty/flight safety rules and the accident was therefore crew error!
We can't win this one, BUT THEY can't win the retention/recruitment one!!
"A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men, but a disgruntled employee can cause more damage than a 1000 pressed men!"
Hengist has been offered reasoned response in the past; regrettably, however, this was obviously wasted effort.
I do not know whether it his lack of education or mere schadenfreude which compels him to write such pointlessly abusive prose as he has penned above. Whichever it might have been, constructive suggestion would have been far more approriate than groundless bile.
Any failure to respond to genuine Flight Safety concern may be considered to be contributory negligence in the event of a future incident if those concerns should prove to have been valid.
I do not know whether it his lack of education or mere schadenfreude which compels him to write such pointlessly abusive prose as he has penned above. Whichever it might have been, constructive suggestion would have been far more approriate than groundless bile.
Any failure to respond to genuine Flight Safety concern may be considered to be contributory negligence in the event of a future incident if those concerns should prove to have been valid.