Has saluting had its day?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Angleterre
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has saluting had its day?
Not a troll, but there am I reminising about the days when I enjoyed the RAF cause we had a clearly identified enemy whose ass we knew we could hurt if not kick back to Moscow.
Then I remembered watching a young airman getting rodded out recently by a 2.5 for not saluting, and I made comparisons to black New Yorkers passing high 5s which I also witnessed recently. The differance is little thinks I.
So who invented saluting in the first place? we all know what a salute is meant to be regarding the monarch, but frankly it is a pain in the bum for all concerned.
I believe we do it because Grandfathers generation thought it a top idea, Is there still a place for it in Armed Forces that seem to have binned every other tradition once held so dear to many hearts?
Yozzer
Who normally greets with his forhead!
Then I remembered watching a young airman getting rodded out recently by a 2.5 for not saluting, and I made comparisons to black New Yorkers passing high 5s which I also witnessed recently. The differance is little thinks I.
So who invented saluting in the first place? we all know what a salute is meant to be regarding the monarch, but frankly it is a pain in the bum for all concerned.
I believe we do it because Grandfathers generation thought it a top idea, Is there still a place for it in Armed Forces that seem to have binned every other tradition once held so dear to many hearts?
Yozzer
Who normally greets with his forhead!
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saluting has 2 historical basis, the first is the palm down salute of the RN (which the Americans bastardised)which originated from raising the corner of the tri-corn hat when passing a more senior officer on deck. This transpired into paying compliments to an officer who had authority vested from the Queen, and thus an expression of loyalty to the Monarch directly in later years.
The Army/RAF salute shows the open palm to prove that there is no concealed weapon and thus demonstrating "friendship". The foreruner to this action was shaking hands. In medieval and Elizabethan times this was done by grasping the fore-arm of the person you greet to determine if they had a concealed weapon and thus intended to do you harm. This was abbreviated to showing the open palm at shoulder or head height, which became a salute.
I find it quite civilised, though it is sometimes a pain, I have to admit (esp when the RSM has a go at me for being to "gash" about it sir!).
The Army/RAF salute shows the open palm to prove that there is no concealed weapon and thus demonstrating "friendship". The foreruner to this action was shaking hands. In medieval and Elizabethan times this was done by grasping the fore-arm of the person you greet to determine if they had a concealed weapon and thus intended to do you harm. This was abbreviated to showing the open palm at shoulder or head height, which became a salute.
I find it quite civilised, though it is sometimes a pain, I have to admit (esp when the RSM has a go at me for being to "gash" about it sir!).
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well swipe me. I thought saluting had been banned in the RAF judging by the lack of it that was going on at Uxbridge last week end! Or was it just my dark blue uniform that confused the poor people?
kbf1. Believe it or not the RN did not wear "tricorn" hats as uniform, but "Cocked Hats" or bicorns. Athwart ships for Admirals and Captains, fore and aft for Lieutenants. (At least that was the convention at the time of Trafalgar etc.) Sailors used to "Knuckle their foreheads" and Officers salute by grasping the corner of the hat away from their seniors. Also raising the hat on very formal occaisions.The salute as we know it developed when the people started to have uniform headgear. It was used so a sailor would not have to display a dirty hand to a senior officer. The practice of saluting on the disengaged side went in the early 1900s and the practice of saluting with out a cap was only formaly curtailed by the curent issue of the ceremonial manual. The requirement to raise one's hat to a senior officer when dressed in civvies still exists, though security needs mean that this is most unlikely to happen in a public place. The drill for raising a base ball cap worn astern has therefore not been introduced.
kbf1. Believe it or not the RN did not wear "tricorn" hats as uniform, but "Cocked Hats" or bicorns. Athwart ships for Admirals and Captains, fore and aft for Lieutenants. (At least that was the convention at the time of Trafalgar etc.) Sailors used to "Knuckle their foreheads" and Officers salute by grasping the corner of the hat away from their seniors. Also raising the hat on very formal occaisions.The salute as we know it developed when the people started to have uniform headgear. It was used so a sailor would not have to display a dirty hand to a senior officer. The practice of saluting on the disengaged side went in the early 1900s and the practice of saluting with out a cap was only formaly curtailed by the curent issue of the ceremonial manual. The requirement to raise one's hat to a senior officer when dressed in civvies still exists, though security needs mean that this is most unlikely to happen in a public place. The drill for raising a base ball cap worn astern has therefore not been introduced.
Had always understood that the origins of saluting went much further back - to deliberately raising the visor of a helmet (or removing it altogether) to demonstrate friendship and respect.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Far far away
Age: 53
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I noticed that saluting stopped at the gate of an airfield in Oxon for a while during the past few weeks. Although I enjoy the tradition of recognizing the Queen etc, I have never liked the idea of being easily identified by anyone outside a unit.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Death Star
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In answer to the original post, I'm all for saluting. How else can a Royal Pioneer Corps/RLC officer feel like somebody special when in everyday life he would be saying "do want fries with that?". kbf1, steady boy, steady!
Definition of the above commissioned type= someone who has failed police dog selection.
The Army/Navy has traditions, the RAF merely have habits.
We are the armed forces of a great nation, not a corporate conglomerate that needs to advertise. That is an all-together different argument.
:o
Definition of the above commissioned type= someone who has failed police dog selection.
The Army/Navy has traditions, the RAF merely have habits.
We are the armed forces of a great nation, not a corporate conglomerate that needs to advertise. That is an all-together different argument.
:o
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many more traditions are we to lose? Has not enough been done to turn our fine Armed Forces into a shadow of its former self? Is PC going to kill us off completely? Goodness! We might scrap the concept of wearing uniform - after all, does it not infringe the human rights of the Serviceman by making him wear uniform? Does he not have the right to freedom of expression by wearing civilian cloths which he feels reflects his character?
Those in the Forces must resist destroying any more traditions - if you don't like it then you have every opportunity to withdraw from training when you learn the traditions you are required to follow.
Saluting a pain in the bum? It requires the same effort as raising a pint of beer to your lips.
Those in the Forces must resist destroying any more traditions - if you don't like it then you have every opportunity to withdraw from training when you learn the traditions you are required to follow.
Saluting a pain in the bum? It requires the same effort as raising a pint of beer to your lips.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: In Hope
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jackonicko's understanding is {I believe} correct.
Warriors showing that they were unarmed, while raising their helmet face shields etc.
Wasn't it the Romans who saluted with their right hand while travelling on all of the roads that led to Rome. Thus proving that the original road rules required foot traffic, gladiators and charoits to keep to the left!.
Obviously throught the years, some inrerpretations have been added, both in salutations and road rules.
Spelling Again!!
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Ex F111 ]
Warriors showing that they were unarmed, while raising their helmet face shields etc.
Wasn't it the Romans who saluted with their right hand while travelling on all of the roads that led to Rome. Thus proving that the original road rules required foot traffic, gladiators and charoits to keep to the left!.
Obviously throught the years, some inrerpretations have been added, both in salutations and road rules.
Spelling Again!!
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Ex F111 ]
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk of raising visors is correct but of course if you had a "full helmet" you had to take it off, this is where we get the idea of raising hats from in the first place. The salute purely being the military version of hat raising. As I have stated earlier the Albert raised hats as well. As to the idea of not wearing uniform, I think you might find that the Geneva Convention has somthing to say about that! Though I do Know an old gentleman (RNVR) who flew a Swordfish from MAC ships with the Title "MERCHANT NAVY" painted on the side of his aircraft. He wore dog robbers under his flying clothing on the grounds that if fished out of the oggin by a german he wpould end up in a better class of prison camp. Of course if he had reached enemy held land he would have been shot!
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you want fries with that mate? You can go large for an extra 50p!
Sorry HV, just reverting to type.
Still, we always know that the light-blue bereted types can sweep the floor for us, as that is, after all, a bit beneath the trucking master-race. 
By the way... I would have passed the police dog selection if only I were flexible enough to bend over and lick my own balls. c'est la vie!
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]
Sorry HV, just reverting to type.
Still, we always know that the light-blue bereted types can sweep the floor for us, as that is, after all, a bit beneath the trucking master-race. By the way... I would have passed the police dog selection if only I were flexible enough to bend over and lick my own balls. c'est la vie!
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Angleterre
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting replies for which I thank you. I believe that the gate guards are briefed not to salute anybody, though the staishes car usually manages one, and in field conditions / operational sites, you do not salute. Rumour has is that no officer at High Wycombe gets a salute unless he has stars on the car, though that sounds like pants. Which raises the question:
As we no longer jowst (s?) and aircrew rarely wear uniform anyway (SES is just that SES, not uniform, and yes I am aircrew) if we kissed off the whole idea tomorrow, would it be missed?
After all, our army brethren insist on wearing camouflaged rank that you can never see until its too late, and is not the AAC the most junior of all services? ..and for Helmut, is not Westlands finest the Wessex??
God knows how many WO2 get saluted and Majors that do not! What would be the consequence for a genuine objector to the monarchy who refused to oblige, (in this day of euro rights etc) All hypothetical, but I have learnt a bit from this thread which made getting out of bed this morning worthwhile.
As we no longer jowst (s?) and aircrew rarely wear uniform anyway (SES is just that SES, not uniform, and yes I am aircrew) if we kissed off the whole idea tomorrow, would it be missed?
After all, our army brethren insist on wearing camouflaged rank that you can never see until its too late, and is not the AAC the most junior of all services? ..and for Helmut, is not Westlands finest the Wessex??
God knows how many WO2 get saluted and Majors that do not! What would be the consequence for a genuine objector to the monarchy who refused to oblige, (in this day of euro rights etc) All hypothetical, but I have learnt a bit from this thread which made getting out of bed this morning worthwhile.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: LGW
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree that it shoud stay. Reference the note about energy being the same as lifting a pint of beer to your lips, I note many a airman crossing the road to avoid having to salute! Quite amusing really!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Hook, Hants
Age: 68
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As was touched on earlier - if you don't like rules of the club you can always go back to making up B*g M*cs. The sooner they get rid of cheap online time and stamp out this twoddle the sooner we can get back to civilised exchanges with the sort of gent that has a private income (cavalry not t**ny w**ny) chew on that one and all baaaaaaaaah
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yozz. the easy way to get round the DPM rank slides bit it to look at the cap-bADGE. If it is made of metal then it is being worn by a non-commissioned rank. If it is embriodered (like a mini-blazer badge)then it is being worn by an officer. As a rule of thumb, if the officer is more than about 5 years older than you, chances are he is a "sir". I have to admit though, the RAF WO can look like an officer from a distance in a chip-bag as the badges are almost the same (if not actually). That still would not be the case in the brown warrior master-race as WOs still wear the same cap bades as the soldiers.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Death Star
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kbf, now I'm confused?!? What about The Parachute Regiment's cap badge? Should I not salute anybody?!? Should I salute everybody in the Really Large Corps with a blazer badge on their head? Please advise.
Yozz, irony dear chap with ref. to Westlands finest.
Yozz, irony dear chap with ref. to Westlands finest.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a Direct Entry Trick Cyclist on my RNZAF Staff course (senior Flt Lt) who had wings from the (then)policy of teaching such chaps to fly in order to better understand his role, and who I noted one day on leaving the Mess that he had A W/O's hat! I asked him how long he had been wearing "that hat"and he said, "since I joined. Why?"
"Get many salutes?"
" No, but come to think of it I get some strange looks!"
"Get many salutes?"
" No, but come to think of it I get some strange looks!"
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somerset
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like Kev doesn't it!
In the last 13yrs there has been only one RNZAF trick cyclist with wings....although there have been many of the 'winged demi-gods' with trick cyclists on their chests!
Its my 1st date as a civy today...quite like it really....1st monday in a while with a hangover that would kill a donkey.
Salutely? Whats that? Used to see it in the RN, but not in NZ. At my leaving medical the young AC WAAF called me "mate".... then gave me a good listening to. Many junior officers seemed somewhat amazed that I made an issue of it...... and with that attitude I would expect that we may as well combine the Officers, SNCOs and ORs Messes and be done with the whole thing. Perhaps we can all be pilots too? Or at least all have wings?
Maybe we should get rid of the aircraft too? Oh, no, we've already done that! Good job, a step in the right direction.
Baagh humbug.
In the last 13yrs there has been only one RNZAF trick cyclist with wings....although there have been many of the 'winged demi-gods' with trick cyclists on their chests!
Its my 1st date as a civy today...quite like it really....1st monday in a while with a hangover that would kill a donkey.
Salutely? Whats that? Used to see it in the RN, but not in NZ. At my leaving medical the young AC WAAF called me "mate".... then gave me a good listening to. Many junior officers seemed somewhat amazed that I made an issue of it...... and with that attitude I would expect that we may as well combine the Officers, SNCOs and ORs Messes and be done with the whole thing. Perhaps we can all be pilots too? Or at least all have wings?
Maybe we should get rid of the aircraft too? Oh, no, we've already done that! Good job, a step in the right direction.
Baagh humbug.
Isn't it the Luftwaffe who have virtually dispensed with hats (and the associated requirement for saluting) except on formal occasions? All RAF aerodromes have a ban on wearing hats as soons as you pass the 'manoeuvring area' signs - we used to have an ar$e of a WO who hated the fact that nobody wore hats between the car park and the sqn building (since both were on the manoeuvring area), but the F/O's junta soon put him right about that! Nobody bothers with the neck-wrenching 'eyes right' salute-without-hat equivalent that you used to see Dickie Attenborough doing in 'Guns at Batasi' - we usually just exchange a polite 'Good Morning', although some people are rude enough just to ignore anyone they encounter.......
Yozzer
"As we no longer joust and aircrew rarely wear uniform anyway (SES is just that SES, not uniform, and yes I am aircrew) if we kissed off the whole idea tomorrow, would it be missed?"
I beg to differ old chap. Those who fly the sharp pointy steads are for ever saying how much they enjoy aerial jousting (combat)! Even our multi engine bretheren claim to enjoy the jousting that is air-to-air refuelling!!
As for flying clothing being just SES I think you will find you are wrong. Flying clothing, at least in the RAF, is now No 14 Uniform! Something to do with being in uniform if captured in combat I believe!!!!
I for one think that saluting has a place in the modern military. PC should not force us to dump all our traditions. IMHO those who do not bother, and those who do not correct those who do not bother, are all symptomatic of everything that is going wrong with the military today - laziness and a lack of personal standards?
And it really annoys me that large empires, like that just off the Bristol Ring Road, declare themselves to be a no hat no saluting area. Is it that difficult to pay compliments?
Lights blue touch paper and retires....
"As we no longer joust and aircrew rarely wear uniform anyway (SES is just that SES, not uniform, and yes I am aircrew) if we kissed off the whole idea tomorrow, would it be missed?"
I beg to differ old chap. Those who fly the sharp pointy steads are for ever saying how much they enjoy aerial jousting (combat)! Even our multi engine bretheren claim to enjoy the jousting that is air-to-air refuelling!!
As for flying clothing being just SES I think you will find you are wrong. Flying clothing, at least in the RAF, is now No 14 Uniform! Something to do with being in uniform if captured in combat I believe!!!!
I for one think that saluting has a place in the modern military. PC should not force us to dump all our traditions. IMHO those who do not bother, and those who do not correct those who do not bother, are all symptomatic of everything that is going wrong with the military today - laziness and a lack of personal standards?
And it really annoys me that large empires, like that just off the Bristol Ring Road, declare themselves to be a no hat no saluting area. Is it that difficult to pay compliments?
Lights blue touch paper and retires....