Has saluting had its day?
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This information is for any enlisted personnel who don't like saluting (I am enlisted so don't get pissed at me). There are two parts to a salute, the subordinate initiates it and the senior officer returns it. It is not just enlisted personnel who salute officers, junior officers salute as well. The important part is that the salute is returned in due recognition and respect of the subordinate's position and rank. There are no orders in any Commowealth force that I am aware of that prevent enlisted personnel from saluting each other as well. Although this is not common, it is not unknown.
Without traditions and a past, we simply become civvies in uniform.
Without traditions and a past, we simply become civvies in uniform.
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Couldn't have put it better myself Hengist.
I had given some thought to how people with such attitude actually survive, but decided it was rather pointless.
Nice one.Well said!
I had given some thought to how people with such attitude actually survive, but decided it was rather pointless.
Nice one.Well said!
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Samuel and Hengist
If you're going to make ignorant remarks then at least give yourselves a chance by reading other's messages carefully. I'm sure you work very well with officers, Hengist, isn't that what good SNCOs are supposed to do, whether flight deck or otherwise? But you lose all credibility by ranting that you work better than me! How can you possibly offer an opinion either way?! As far as your weak argument's concerned, I'm very well aware of flight deck protocols and that rank awareness is left on the ground. I am also aware that discipline is just as tight whether between Capt and Co or officer and SNCO. You refer to a totally different environment to that on which the initial theme was based ie has saluting 'generally' had its day? The answer is, of course, no and if a jnr rank did not acknowledge the Queens Commission as I passed, flight deck or otherwise, I would correct the error as it is my duty to do so. That does not put me in the dark ages and I can assure you that upholding regulations and traditions did not 'go out with the ark'. We are not in a flying club, we are a military service and, sorry to say, some airmen, SNCOs and officers need to be reminded of that.
FM: Just in case you ever actually command men instead of just a machine, let me put your mind at rest. Airmen who have been charged cannot opt to take you to court! They can opt for trial by DCM!! You made my evening when I read that!
If you're going to make ignorant remarks then at least give yourselves a chance by reading other's messages carefully. I'm sure you work very well with officers, Hengist, isn't that what good SNCOs are supposed to do, whether flight deck or otherwise? But you lose all credibility by ranting that you work better than me! How can you possibly offer an opinion either way?! As far as your weak argument's concerned, I'm very well aware of flight deck protocols and that rank awareness is left on the ground. I am also aware that discipline is just as tight whether between Capt and Co or officer and SNCO. You refer to a totally different environment to that on which the initial theme was based ie has saluting 'generally' had its day? The answer is, of course, no and if a jnr rank did not acknowledge the Queens Commission as I passed, flight deck or otherwise, I would correct the error as it is my duty to do so. That does not put me in the dark ages and I can assure you that upholding regulations and traditions did not 'go out with the ark'. We are not in a flying club, we are a military service and, sorry to say, some airmen, SNCOs and officers need to be reminded of that.
FM: Just in case you ever actually command men instead of just a machine, let me put your mind at rest. Airmen who have been charged cannot opt to take you to court! They can opt for trial by DCM!! You made my evening when I read that!
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Quote:
Just in case you ever actually command men instead of just a machine, let me put your mind at rest. Airmen who have been charged cannot opt to take you to court! They can opt for trial by DCM!! You made my evening when I read that!
I know a Wing Commander that backed down after a letter from a solicitor threatening litigation against him as an individual.
He was exercising Air Force Law to the letter without an iota of common sense involved. Air Force Law (AFL) is not worth the value of the paper that it is written on nowadays and should be cancelled in toto, or rewritten to modern legal practices.
The individual concerned did take the civil case that the Wg Cdr was intruding into to civil court, and won the case. Good job then that the Wg Cdr did back down for he was next on the list.
The case would have gone further, I know, I was that man.
I think most of us agree that PC has gone too far, you cannot even have a "black" coffee nowadays, but I would advise caution when getting involved in any legal case, for QRs and AFL will not protect you.
T_M
Just in case you ever actually command men instead of just a machine, let me put your mind at rest. Airmen who have been charged cannot opt to take you to court! They can opt for trial by DCM!! You made my evening when I read that!
I know a Wing Commander that backed down after a letter from a solicitor threatening litigation against him as an individual.
He was exercising Air Force Law to the letter without an iota of common sense involved. Air Force Law (AFL) is not worth the value of the paper that it is written on nowadays and should be cancelled in toto, or rewritten to modern legal practices.
The individual concerned did take the civil case that the Wg Cdr was intruding into to civil court, and won the case. Good job then that the Wg Cdr did back down for he was next on the list.
The case would have gone further, I know, I was that man.
I think most of us agree that PC has gone too far, you cannot even have a "black" coffee nowadays, but I would advise caution when getting involved in any legal case, for QRs and AFL will not protect you.
T_M
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Udeski, you get my vote. There seems to be a significant amount of ill-informed comment here. To clarify my point of view:
I command a squadron of some 63 military personnel. They range in age and experience: Warrant Officers with more time in the RAF than I have been alive; junior officers barely out of their nappies; airmen/airwomen under the age of 20 (5 of which are under the age of 18). I would like to think that this squadron works as a team, maintains the right level of respect and is well disciplined. Furthermore, I can guarantee that each and every one of them knows why we have traditions and customs such as saluting.
What I can also say is that these personnel thrive on the predictable structure and ethos offered by the military. However, what the more junior individuals have greater difficulty with is the apparant double standards and break down in the chain of command. It is often the airmen who have problems with ill-disciplined officers.
As for that "all of one team" stuff, I couldn't agree more. However, we don't have to be chummy to be an effective team.
PS. For the record, I am an air traffiker and you will never find a 'flatter' hierarchical structure than within an ATC tower. Take a look and you will often see sgts instructing flt lts and the occassional sqn ldr. This does not stop any of us from adopting the appropriate manner and bearing outside of our immediate working environment.
PPS. I vowed not to get dragged into this argument. Guess I failed!
[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]
I command a squadron of some 63 military personnel. They range in age and experience: Warrant Officers with more time in the RAF than I have been alive; junior officers barely out of their nappies; airmen/airwomen under the age of 20 (5 of which are under the age of 18). I would like to think that this squadron works as a team, maintains the right level of respect and is well disciplined. Furthermore, I can guarantee that each and every one of them knows why we have traditions and customs such as saluting.
What I can also say is that these personnel thrive on the predictable structure and ethos offered by the military. However, what the more junior individuals have greater difficulty with is the apparant double standards and break down in the chain of command. It is often the airmen who have problems with ill-disciplined officers.
As for that "all of one team" stuff, I couldn't agree more. However, we don't have to be chummy to be an effective team.
PS. For the record, I am an air traffiker and you will never find a 'flatter' hierarchical structure than within an ATC tower. Take a look and you will often see sgts instructing flt lts and the occassional sqn ldr. This does not stop any of us from adopting the appropriate manner and bearing outside of our immediate working environment.
PPS. I vowed not to get dragged into this argument. Guess I failed!
[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]
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Udeski, if you read my earlier posts you will find that I agree with you on the saluting, but not on the threats. Whether your intention is to do so or not, you come across in your writing as being slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun.
There are ways and means of running units with large numbers of very senior nco's and very inexperienced younger airmen and women, without developing an attitude problem, either up or down.
I guess it's called management.
There are ways and means of running units with large numbers of very senior nco's and very inexperienced younger airmen and women, without developing an attitude problem, either up or down.
I guess it's called management.
Hmm - fancy a bit of heel-clicking and a formal straight-armed 'Gruss' me'self.
Not really!!
In fact the vast majority of people have no problem with this tradition - unless it's some grumpy old $od who doesn't even return a verbal greeting. I think it's best for the 'salutee'(i.e. senior person) to make eye contact and acknowledge the presence of another human being before the 'technical' saluting exchange takes place as that stops silly 'long range saluting' or the converse 'selective myopia' - and it really shouldn't be too much to expect that the
exchange is accompanied by a friendly manner on behalf of both parties. Back in 1969 we were expected to salute fellow officers of the same rank on first meeting them in the morning! And a certain, b£oody nice Wg Cdr even remembered the old tradition of saluting when leaving my office the other week after coming to see me about something - just as I would do on leaving the Fg Off JEngO's office.
Remember the days when we ALL saluted on entering morning met brief??
Not really!!
In fact the vast majority of people have no problem with this tradition - unless it's some grumpy old $od who doesn't even return a verbal greeting. I think it's best for the 'salutee'(i.e. senior person) to make eye contact and acknowledge the presence of another human being before the 'technical' saluting exchange takes place as that stops silly 'long range saluting' or the converse 'selective myopia' - and it really shouldn't be too much to expect that the
exchange is accompanied by a friendly manner on behalf of both parties. Back in 1969 we were expected to salute fellow officers of the same rank on first meeting them in the morning! And a certain, b£oody nice Wg Cdr even remembered the old tradition of saluting when leaving my office the other week after coming to see me about something - just as I would do on leaving the Fg Off JEngO's office.
Remember the days when we ALL saluted on entering morning met brief??
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In the end it is simply a matter of respect being shown between the ranks. If you don't like the military system, exercise your freedom and vote with your feet. I wouldn't pass an officer without saying hello, so why not salute as well. As the saying goes, the army didn't join you, so ****** off.
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BEagle
We are not of the same, but we are the same! It's ironic that this thread has, like many others that start on non-flying topics, degenerated into a slanging match, with insults and postering.
I find it sad really that some posters who are quite happy to take certain elements of military life (the pluses), have a real problem with some of the trivial minuses. Saluting. Something worthy of such debate? Pay? Yes. Living conditions? Yes. Overstretch? By all means. But saluting? I'm not so much staggered by the unwillingness to do it, because I see that every day. But what saddens me is the posturing - those that think they are so 'well 'ard' because they are not professional enough to translate their profesionalism in the working environment to that outside. Additionally, at risk of generalising, it would appear that those who do not actually have to 'lead', 'manage' and 'develop' personnel are very quick to expouse on the merits (or not) of discipline and the MAFL. When some of you have walked in the shoes of those who have to deal with personnel (not just on the way to/from work), give them as hard a time as you want. Until them, your pond is not very deep.
On KAA's question, a few years ago, I had to read a charge of one of my JNCOs, who was charged by the Stn Cdr for failing to play compliments. Now, the CO was not a Scottish Gp Capt-type and we were at the hover base off the A1 in the early 90s. Those of you there at the time will recall that said CO was a particularly easy-going bloke, for example, his ideas on dress in the mess were particularly enlightning. We digress. He did charge the cpl for not saluting per se, but more for being dim. You see, he drove past the bloke, flag waving, etc, and saw no salute. So, he had the driver pull over, so as the cpl could catch up. Catch up he did, but the cpl walked straight past. At this point, to CO called him back. The cpl turned around - still no salute (picture the scene, just past the airmen's mess, streets not empty, car with flag, occupant in rear seat with gold braid on cap peak - alarm bells should be ringing here). The CO said something like, "not very awake today, are we, cpl"? Still no salute. It was at this point that the CO, having given him a number of opportunities to save himself, made the guy aware of the error of his ways, told him what he expected of JNCOs, and took his ID card. Like I sid, not really for being indisciplined, but more for being stupid. In sum, KAA, IMO, gave the guy an out, which was declined. Cannot see how he would have had another option, particularly as there was a fair chance that the guy's CO may well have been one of those 'get back in yer box APO, types!
The saddest reflection of all is that this thread has attracted so much negative comment and more debate than other topical threads. Some have said that if you cannot deal with the military bit, then leave. IMHO, it is the fact that so many see it as not a military outfit (in all forms), that they are leaving.
I'll get me coat, hat and scarf.
[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Didntdoit ]
We are not of the same, but we are the same! It's ironic that this thread has, like many others that start on non-flying topics, degenerated into a slanging match, with insults and postering.
I find it sad really that some posters who are quite happy to take certain elements of military life (the pluses), have a real problem with some of the trivial minuses. Saluting. Something worthy of such debate? Pay? Yes. Living conditions? Yes. Overstretch? By all means. But saluting? I'm not so much staggered by the unwillingness to do it, because I see that every day. But what saddens me is the posturing - those that think they are so 'well 'ard' because they are not professional enough to translate their profesionalism in the working environment to that outside. Additionally, at risk of generalising, it would appear that those who do not actually have to 'lead', 'manage' and 'develop' personnel are very quick to expouse on the merits (or not) of discipline and the MAFL. When some of you have walked in the shoes of those who have to deal with personnel (not just on the way to/from work), give them as hard a time as you want. Until them, your pond is not very deep.
On KAA's question, a few years ago, I had to read a charge of one of my JNCOs, who was charged by the Stn Cdr for failing to play compliments. Now, the CO was not a Scottish Gp Capt-type and we were at the hover base off the A1 in the early 90s. Those of you there at the time will recall that said CO was a particularly easy-going bloke, for example, his ideas on dress in the mess were particularly enlightning. We digress. He did charge the cpl for not saluting per se, but more for being dim. You see, he drove past the bloke, flag waving, etc, and saw no salute. So, he had the driver pull over, so as the cpl could catch up. Catch up he did, but the cpl walked straight past. At this point, to CO called him back. The cpl turned around - still no salute (picture the scene, just past the airmen's mess, streets not empty, car with flag, occupant in rear seat with gold braid on cap peak - alarm bells should be ringing here). The CO said something like, "not very awake today, are we, cpl"? Still no salute. It was at this point that the CO, having given him a number of opportunities to save himself, made the guy aware of the error of his ways, told him what he expected of JNCOs, and took his ID card. Like I sid, not really for being indisciplined, but more for being stupid. In sum, KAA, IMO, gave the guy an out, which was declined. Cannot see how he would have had another option, particularly as there was a fair chance that the guy's CO may well have been one of those 'get back in yer box APO, types!
The saddest reflection of all is that this thread has attracted so much negative comment and more debate than other topical threads. Some have said that if you cannot deal with the military bit, then leave. IMHO, it is the fact that so many see it as not a military outfit (in all forms), that they are leaving.
I'll get me coat, hat and scarf.
[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Didntdoit ]
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Didntdoit said:
Some have said that if you cannot deal with the military bit, then leave. IMHO, it is the fact that so many see it as not a military outfit (in all forms), that they are leaving.
Beg to differ on that one, Quality of life, financial restraint, and leaders lining their own nest are the subjects I hear about in crewrooms. Along with too much licence talk, and Geographical stability, or rather lack of it.
Lack of promotion to deserving cases across the full spectrum of the RAF is a major cause for concern and with good reason.
Taceval city in RAFG had good quality of life, a sense of purpose, and mutual respect across the full (Station) team, and despite the wailing minis at 4 in the morning, Morale was superb. It has gone, and without major changes in policy, will never return.
I`ll get back in my box now.
PS
BZN today, WTF was driving the Antonov with Air Rage
Some have said that if you cannot deal with the military bit, then leave. IMHO, it is the fact that so many see it as not a military outfit (in all forms), that they are leaving.
Beg to differ on that one, Quality of life, financial restraint, and leaders lining their own nest are the subjects I hear about in crewrooms. Along with too much licence talk, and Geographical stability, or rather lack of it.
Lack of promotion to deserving cases across the full spectrum of the RAF is a major cause for concern and with good reason.
Taceval city in RAFG had good quality of life, a sense of purpose, and mutual respect across the full (Station) team, and despite the wailing minis at 4 in the morning, Morale was superb. It has gone, and without major changes in policy, will never return.
I`ll get back in my box now.
PS
BZN today, WTF was driving the Antonov with Air Rage
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Tiger Mate,
Let me elaborate. When I said not military, I should have added, 'with purpose'. I totally agree with you, we were focused then, with a sense of purpose, and all the 'military' blah came naturally. We are not now, in part due to the reasons that you highlighted.
I'll take your differ and agree with it.
Weren't a Tiger in 87 were you, per chance?
Let me elaborate. When I said not military, I should have added, 'with purpose'. I totally agree with you, we were focused then, with a sense of purpose, and all the 'military' blah came naturally. We are not now, in part due to the reasons that you highlighted.
I'll take your differ and agree with it.
Weren't a Tiger in 87 were you, per chance?
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Getting warmer. Montijo TM One of your peers (Blonde Nav) "saluted" by a bullock yearling who showed him no respect at all.
Causing open lacerations above his eye with his horn
Believe you had a good boss at the time who now enjoys his flying far too much
<Que Green face> and thoughts of Corsairs
Laugh! I nearly paid my mess bill
Causing open lacerations above his eye with his horn
Believe you had a good boss at the time who now enjoys his flying far too much
<Que Green face> and thoughts of Corsairs
Laugh! I nearly paid my mess bill
I didn't think Tiger Mates liked it around Montijo way......didn't they run out of fuel?
No valid point to make, just a feeble link to that part of Portugal..and I know you were talking about a couple of years earlier...we did giggle, however, when we read the incident report in a Dungannon ISO!
No valid point to make, just a feeble link to that part of Portugal..and I know you were talking about a couple of years earlier...we did giggle, however, when we read the incident report in a Dungannon ISO!
Ah - 74(F) with the F4J!! Now there was a unit with esprit-de-corps which really was the dog's whatsits! And that from someone who was earlier on 56(F)!!
We tanked the 3rd lot of 'Js' back from Miramar and North Island back in Oct/Nov '84 - what an excellent trip that was! But what miserable git stopped the Tigers wearing their Spam 'flight suits' and skid-lids?
We tanked the 3rd lot of 'Js' back from Miramar and North Island back in Oct/Nov '84 - what an excellent trip that was! But what miserable git stopped the Tigers wearing their Spam 'flight suits' and skid-lids?
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The miserable git was - the SCREAMING SKULL. Rule number one - never let someone take over a Station from someone he hated!
Best year in the Firm that was, with the J's. BEagle, you are right, the Boss at the time was a top bloke. Espirit de Corps? Bang on! To get back on topic - no one on the sqn had a problem using the term 'Sir' (although 'Boss' or trigraph were just as appropriate) or indeed throwing them up, when appropriate.
Like T_M said, there was morale around at the time.
Didn't do Montijo, but the blonde nav I remember!
Best year in the Firm that was, with the J's. BEagle, you are right, the Boss at the time was a top bloke. Espirit de Corps? Bang on! To get back on topic - no one on the sqn had a problem using the term 'Sir' (although 'Boss' or trigraph were just as appropriate) or indeed throwing them up, when appropriate.
Like T_M said, there was morale around at the time.
Didn't do Montijo, but the blonde nav I remember!
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...wasn't this thread about saluting?? 
From someone who's been on both sides of the salute (was prior enlisted), I never had a problem saluting the "O's". Growing up as an Army brat, I knew it was a sign of mutual respect (as it supposively originated between knights). When I had a mere couple of stripes on my sleeve I was more offended by the officers that would try to avoid saluting (dashing across the street when they saw the opportunity). It used to **** us off so much we'd actually merge on these clowns and force them to salute anyway. Now I am a crusty old mustang, I get riffed when I see a sloppy salute or, as required by USAF customs and courtesies, no "verbal greeting". Again, it is an exchange of mutual respect, and when I show more respect than the three-striper with less than four years in service something is wrong.
OK, I will admit I am probably more anal about this than most, but I believe in military tradition (even in the Air Force). I've noticed in the multinational environments I've worked in many other nations are not as inclined to salute as we Yanks. True, or am I nuts on this one?
Personally, I wish the USAF would re-write its ridiculous dress and appearance regulations and allow us to grow some decent mustaches, so we don't have to deploy in order to do so. In garrison we look like a bunch of Hitler's kids!
Cheers!
From someone who's been on both sides of the salute (was prior enlisted), I never had a problem saluting the "O's". Growing up as an Army brat, I knew it was a sign of mutual respect (as it supposively originated between knights). When I had a mere couple of stripes on my sleeve I was more offended by the officers that would try to avoid saluting (dashing across the street when they saw the opportunity). It used to **** us off so much we'd actually merge on these clowns and force them to salute anyway. Now I am a crusty old mustang, I get riffed when I see a sloppy salute or, as required by USAF customs and courtesies, no "verbal greeting". Again, it is an exchange of mutual respect, and when I show more respect than the three-striper with less than four years in service something is wrong.
OK, I will admit I am probably more anal about this than most, but I believe in military tradition (even in the Air Force). I've noticed in the multinational environments I've worked in many other nations are not as inclined to salute as we Yanks. True, or am I nuts on this one?
Personally, I wish the USAF would re-write its ridiculous dress and appearance regulations and allow us to grow some decent mustaches, so we don't have to deploy in order to do so. In garrison we look like a bunch of Hitler's kids!
Cheers!
Point about 74(F) was that this was a proud unit. The airmen groundcrew just as much as the officer aircrew - and people saluted eachother as custom dictates with an equal pride.
The slovenly, foot shuffling, eye contact avoiding, salute evading few must snap out of it, stand up straight and remember the traditions of the organisation they are part of. Their attitude is the "'sdoin' me 'ed 'in" way of modern 'yoof' - which really means "I'm too lazy to cope!". It's part of the military mind set; when things are going bang around them, which other aspects of military discipline do they think that they'll be able to avoid.........??
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
The slovenly, foot shuffling, eye contact avoiding, salute evading few must snap out of it, stand up straight and remember the traditions of the organisation they are part of. Their attitude is the "'sdoin' me 'ed 'in" way of modern 'yoof' - which really means "I'm too lazy to cope!". It's part of the military mind set; when things are going bang around them, which other aspects of military discipline do they think that they'll be able to avoid.........??
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
M3
Don't recall getting much respect from you when you were Capn Mad Max!
Don't recall getting much respect from you when you were Capn Mad Max!