Nimrod MRA.4
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Trust me as an engineer I do care for what happens to fellow people involved in Aircraft, be it manufacture to the poor sod cleaning the toilets..... Sad day all round, it just ranks as P... poor planning and bad decisions made by those that will walk away smelling of roses.
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I appreciate your comments, you have your views (as an ex Woodford employee) and I have mine (as an ex Hatfield employee) but I would be very interested to know who told you 'not to comment'.
I speak as as an ex-Hatfield person as well though.
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LJ
"Fair point, but I guess that SoS Def, the Defence Council, Chf Def Materiel or DFlying (or whatever the post is called these days?) hadn't wanted to take the risk to go to Fairford/Farnborough either?"
It was nothing to do with any of these people not being prepared to take a risk. The paperwork process was not completed in time to allow the aircraft to participate (as it had the year before). No FAC, no fly, period, don't matter who you are. The FAC was signed about 2 weeks later, hence the aircraft got airborne.
MOA
You're right, I just can't help myself!
It was nothing to do with any of these people not being prepared to take a risk. The paperwork process was not completed in time to allow the aircraft to participate (as it had the year before). No FAC, no fly, period, don't matter who you are. The FAC was signed about 2 weeks later, hence the aircraft got airborne.
MOA
You're right, I just can't help myself!
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Guys the time has come to move on, it is dead, passed on. This MPA is no more! It has ceased to be! It's production processes are now history! It's kicked the bucket, shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-NIMROD!!
We should be channelling our efforts to ensure there is an inquiry. The fact is that £3.4 BILLION of tax payers money has been spent and we do not have anything. We need to establish:
- What went wrong?
- Was anyone to blame?
- Has anyone committed a crime for which they can be held accountable?
This might stop, or at least avoid the same mistakes happening again, again
I know there is an argument that the £3,400,000,000 supported the UK aviation industry. However effectively providing state hand-outs to prop up an industry that could not provide what it was asked for is just futile and delays the inevitable.
An MP nicks a few thousand £s, or a Banker Wa**er gets a few million in bonuses and the press are in uproar and calling for blood. Why aren't they getting their teeth into this?
We should be channelling our efforts to ensure there is an inquiry. The fact is that £3.4 BILLION of tax payers money has been spent and we do not have anything. We need to establish:
- What went wrong?
- Was anyone to blame?
- Has anyone committed a crime for which they can be held accountable?
This might stop, or at least avoid the same mistakes happening again, again
I know there is an argument that the £3,400,000,000 supported the UK aviation industry. However effectively providing state hand-outs to prop up an industry that could not provide what it was asked for is just futile and delays the inevitable.
An MP nicks a few thousand £s, or a Banker Wa**er gets a few million in bonuses and the press are in uproar and calling for blood. Why aren't they getting their teeth into this?
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Ivan,
That’s simple the fault lays with David Cameron. Until his decision the taxpayer did have something for its £3.4 billion. There were two aircraft awaiting delivery, yes there were the minor tweaks required as already mentioned but in essence they were ready to go. PA6 and PA7 would have followed soon, with all remaining aircraft being delivered by the end of 2012.
In terms of why there were delays I agree there needs to be some lessons learned as the industry and procurement system needs to be improved.
It is indeed sad how the project has ended and I can see the time when this government will realise it needs a MPA capability. Whether they will be able to resurrect it within the RAF who knows. It will also be interesting to see what platforms will be available and how good they actually are. Everyone keeps on about the P8 but without low level capability it is going to require a lot of specially adapted weaponry such as steerable sonobouys and different torpedoes I presume which need to be developed and are going to cost more. In turn pushing up operating costs, then there may be the need to add BAMs with the question of will it be able to operate in UK air space.
Anyway Cameron will probably announce that the UK plans to collaborate with the French on replacing the Atlantique in a few years time
That’s simple the fault lays with David Cameron. Until his decision the taxpayer did have something for its £3.4 billion. There were two aircraft awaiting delivery, yes there were the minor tweaks required as already mentioned but in essence they were ready to go. PA6 and PA7 would have followed soon, with all remaining aircraft being delivered by the end of 2012.
In terms of why there were delays I agree there needs to be some lessons learned as the industry and procurement system needs to be improved.
It is indeed sad how the project has ended and I can see the time when this government will realise it needs a MPA capability. Whether they will be able to resurrect it within the RAF who knows. It will also be interesting to see what platforms will be available and how good they actually are. Everyone keeps on about the P8 but without low level capability it is going to require a lot of specially adapted weaponry such as steerable sonobouys and different torpedoes I presume which need to be developed and are going to cost more. In turn pushing up operating costs, then there may be the need to add BAMs with the question of will it be able to operate in UK air space.
Anyway Cameron will probably announce that the UK plans to collaborate with the French on replacing the Atlantique in a few years time
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Oz, funny you should mention the French, they are going to upgrade their fleet
France Eyes Maritime Surveillance Upgrades | AVIATION WEEK
they are probably only upgrading 14 of the 27 existing airframes.
If and it is a huge IF we ever get back to the MPA game, maybe it might make more sense to try and join them in the project, rather than the P-8(Especially if we want closer cooperation with them). At least we know the Atlantique can do real ASW/ASUW, was designed as an MPA from the start and floats on water if needed! If it is an option the sooner we find out the better, then I can start learning French.
France Eyes Maritime Surveillance Upgrades | AVIATION WEEK
they are probably only upgrading 14 of the 27 existing airframes.
If and it is a huge IF we ever get back to the MPA game, maybe it might make more sense to try and join them in the project, rather than the P-8(Especially if we want closer cooperation with them). At least we know the Atlantique can do real ASW/ASUW, was designed as an MPA from the start and floats on water if needed! If it is an option the sooner we find out the better, then I can start learning French.
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We should be channelling our efforts to ensure there is an inquiry. The fact is that £3.4 BILLION of tax payers money has been spent and we do not have anything. We need to establish:
- What went wrong?
- Was anyone to blame?
- Has anyone committed a crime for which they can be held accountable?
This might stop, or at least avoid the same mistakes happening again, again
- What went wrong?
- Was anyone to blame?
- Has anyone committed a crime for which they can be held accountable?
This might stop, or at least avoid the same mistakes happening again, again
How a bunch of millionaires can be put in charge of running a country is beyond me, they have been brought up in a nice warm bubble and have no clue about hardship.
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Always a messy business collaborating with another country (especially the French) as both sides want to protect their industry and their key technical skill. Work share and double production lines etc etc always pushes up costs and complexity and then you have political interference from two governments.
I think there was a case study done somewhere that collaborative project always cost more and take longer than a unilateral project but no single government (except US, Russia and China) can afford to go it alone these days.
I think there was a case study done somewhere that collaborative project always cost more and take longer than a unilateral project but no single government (except US, Russia and China) can afford to go it alone these days.
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Oz I'm not on about collaborating on the production side of things, more like the way we operate the C-17 or Reaper. Just buy as it and use it, maybe some form of joint OCU to pool airframes/instructors would be cost effective?
Could be offset against another British product they might want to purchase in return, do we make anything they would actually want?
Could be offset against another British product they might want to purchase in return, do we make anything they would actually want?
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I think its funny how everyone likes to blame David Cameron for this decision, how quickly they forget that it was the labour government that spent billions and billions on doomed and pointless PC projects, red tape and admin, the huge and I mean HUGE budget defecit came about because of careless, wasteful spending. That is where the blame lies, Cameron and his government said enough was enough and decided after consultation with Airforce chiefs (fast jet jockeys) that they would not throw good money after bad.
It is painful for those involved but not as painful as it would be for the whole country if we just ignored the huge defecit.
It is painful for those involved but not as painful as it would be for the whole country if we just ignored the huge defecit.
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That is where the blame lies, Cameron and his government said enough was enough and decided after consultation with Airforce chiefs (fast jet jockeys) that they would not throw good money after bad.
Cameron is actually wasting more money on this project thru scrappage than if they had carried on with it, the £1.2 billion would have kept the MRA4 in the air for 6 years and secured 1000s of jobs within the RAF and civilian contractors.
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@oz42 - French procurement
bit of a nit-pick, I know, but while France understandably prefers "home-grown" where possible to the "cheaper" off the shelf, their Air Force has operated KC-135s and C-130s for years.
And their first A400M is on the final assembly line in Spain right now ...
And their first A400M is on the final assembly line in Spain right now ...
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We all know the French were well behind us in ASW capability!
Can Davaar possibly advise us if a court injunction would be possible to avoid this government treachery?
Can Davaar possibly advise us if a court injunction would be possible to avoid this government treachery?
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Injunction?
Can Davaar possibly advise us if a court injunction would be possible to avoid this government treachery?
Chopped up for scrap, Britain's £4 billion fleet of Nimrods - Telegraph
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From the Telegraph:
Basically the government know this is just plain wrong 
I hope the pictures are leaked and provokes an outcry, too late for the MRA4 but maybe it will dawn on people what idiots and dangerous people are running this country
On Monday private contractors hired by the Ministry of Defence will chop off the wings of the first of nine Nimrod MRA4 aircraft.
The Government claims that the decision to scrap the Nimrods will save £2 billion in operating costs over the next decade
To avoid government embarrassment each £400 million aircraft will be draped in tarpaulin and dragged to a remote corner of an airfield where they will be “brutally” dismantled.
The Government claims that the decision to scrap the Nimrods will save £2 billion in operating costs over the next decade
To avoid government embarrassment each £400 million aircraft will be draped in tarpaulin and dragged to a remote corner of an airfield where they will be “brutally” dismantled.
I hope the pictures are leaked and provokes an outcry, too late for the MRA4 but maybe it will dawn on people what idiots and dangerous people are running this country
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It is interesting to see that somebody somewhere is a bit keen for us not to see, when these aircraft are wantonly vandalised.
I thought the PM said it was a brave decision; strong leader ship was required to help the country. Therefore as this is being done in the public interest I think it is only fair that the public get to see the results.
Or is it a case of its all a bit embarrassing lets sweep it under the carpet before anybody notices.
So come on MOD where is your conviction that you are doing the right thing!!! lets see it all in its full glory all £4 billion smashed to bits.
It will be interesting to see how they try and hide PA4 and Warton when it is cut up south side?
I thought the PM said it was a brave decision; strong leader ship was required to help the country. Therefore as this is being done in the public interest I think it is only fair that the public get to see the results.
Or is it a case of its all a bit embarrassing lets sweep it under the carpet before anybody notices.
So come on MOD where is your conviction that you are doing the right thing!!! lets see it all in its full glory all £4 billion smashed to bits.
It will be interesting to see how they try and hide PA4 and Warton when it is cut up south side?
What makes you think the tabloids will be interested?
If they do run anything, it will be for just one day - after that, the latest plot twist in Eastenders or Emmerdale, the Oscar awards, some political event, the 6 nations rugby, world/UK disaster, etc, will ensure that anything about the Nimrod becomes "chip wrappings" (apart from the fact that H&S rules don't allow you to wap fish and chips in newspaper any more).
As to the rush to cut them up, rather than some conspiracy, I would be more inclined to believe the comment made a while ago - that the funding to wind up the project is only for the financial year 2010/11, so it has to all be over by 31st March 2011. Once again it is all about budgets!
If they do run anything, it will be for just one day - after that, the latest plot twist in Eastenders or Emmerdale, the Oscar awards, some political event, the 6 nations rugby, world/UK disaster, etc, will ensure that anything about the Nimrod becomes "chip wrappings" (apart from the fact that H&S rules don't allow you to wap fish and chips in newspaper any more).
As to the rush to cut them up, rather than some conspiracy, I would be more inclined to believe the comment made a while ago - that the funding to wind up the project is only for the financial year 2010/11, so it has to all be over by 31st March 2011. Once again it is all about budgets!
