Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
Grimweasel
Hi Grimweasel - didnt know that your airman's service was wiped out for pension purposes once you were commissioned - but the point is had you stayed in the ranks those extra years would have counted. So we've both been robbed - you more than me but there seems no moral justification for it. What's this new scheme - too late for us but does it right this wrong?
True in a technical sense, but how many 17 year olds are going to enquire about pensions when all they are really interested in is getting their mitts on a nice shiny aeroplane and flying it at the queen's expense. I know if you can't take a joke ..... etc etc, but why is this joke only played on officers?
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Got to go with the 'no' crowd. Future rodneys would disrupt the ranks and simply spread the problem wider and for longer. The solution isn't to improve their knowledge so much as to get better at selecting them - just before I left 'breathing' seemed to be one of the few qualifications. Quality control is the key, and there'll always be a supply of talent to pick from - bums on seats motivates nobody.
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Having done both, I don't think pre-requisite airman service is really a good idea. I got enough hassle for being a mech-tech let alone being a future guaranteed officer. I learned a lot from the ranks and it has certainly helped me in the commissioned world. There are a few major companies that insist their graduate programs spend time on the shop floor; Aldi's management training scheme for one (I'm sure someone will correct me). Believe it or not, the Air Force actually needs Ox-Bridge graduates for higher up the food chain. It may take some time for them to learn the job, but isn't that one of the roles of the FS and WO - mentoring Junior Officers?
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I had two ex WW2 NCO pilots as CO's, both had been made officers after the war and eventually obtained one star rank on retirement. Watched for a little while, a newly made up Flying Officer giving his vast knowledge, to our WO engineer leader who was trying to maintain his composure, whilst this prate rambled on. Eventually the CO who had come down to Captain the airplane, had seen enough and from his mouth came the truth. Dear Flying Officer, you may out rank this man, but you have not yet learnt that he has forgotten more than you will ever learn, you must resign yourself to the fact that you can never gain his level of knowledge and experience and then you will be some use to me.
Later in the flight, he spoke to him again, I am going to show you how you need to know your men and your own limitaions. With that he pulled the co pilot out, and put the WO engineer in his seat and said it is all yours. With that the WO flew the aircraft to top of desent by hand, and then took it down to about circuit height where the boss took over.
As we were taxing in, they changed seats again, and the boss made one more statement. See our engineers spend so much time in the simulator, that I have seen three engineers perform a full session with all problems, without any problems at all.
So let us not kid our selves, officers perform an important leadership roll, but any air force is really run by the NCO's, they are the ones who make things happen.
Regards
Col
Later in the flight, he spoke to him again, I am going to show you how you need to know your men and your own limitaions. With that he pulled the co pilot out, and put the WO engineer in his seat and said it is all yours. With that the WO flew the aircraft to top of desent by hand, and then took it down to about circuit height where the boss took over.
As we were taxing in, they changed seats again, and the boss made one more statement. See our engineers spend so much time in the simulator, that I have seen three engineers perform a full session with all problems, without any problems at all.
So let us not kid our selves, officers perform an important leadership roll, but any air force is really run by the NCO's, they are the ones who make things happen.
Regards
Col
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Having served as an airman for ten years and an officer for 15, I think the answer to the question is a definite "no!" There would be absolutely no benefit to a potential junior officer.
I also feel I had an advantage in my transition [I was never an NCO], in that my ideas on what would make me a good officer [Sqn Ldr Rtd], was that I'd had no pre-conditioning as a SNCO, many of whom continue to think in that rank long after commissioning. I think I also had the benefit, as an airman, of working with some super officers, almost all aircrew types. Some of the other branch representatives never lit my fire, and I recall one Flt Lt OC my section whom I never met in two years!
I'm biased, of course, but I think I was a damn fine officer, and have the paperwork to prove it, because I already had the determination, attitude and integrity to "do it once, do it right". I don't think that always happens with some commissioned NCOs, because that's what some of them continue to be!
I was selected by the way, I never applied for a commission, and I had to convinced by a Gp Capt GD[P] that I was the right man!
I also feel I had an advantage in my transition [I was never an NCO], in that my ideas on what would make me a good officer [Sqn Ldr Rtd], was that I'd had no pre-conditioning as a SNCO, many of whom continue to think in that rank long after commissioning. I think I also had the benefit, as an airman, of working with some super officers, almost all aircrew types. Some of the other branch representatives never lit my fire, and I recall one Flt Lt OC my section whom I never met in two years!
I'm biased, of course, but I think I was a damn fine officer, and have the paperwork to prove it, because I already had the determination, attitude and integrity to "do it once, do it right". I don't think that always happens with some commissioned NCOs, because that's what some of them continue to be!
I was selected by the way, I never applied for a commission, and I had to convinced by a Gp Capt GD[P] that I was the right man!
Last edited by Samuel; 12th Apr 2009 at 08:16.
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Time in the ranks
Samuel, what were you doing for 10 years as an airman who never got promoted? The reality is there are fine Officers who were "never in the ranks", a term which I think is quaint. There are also many fine Officers who came from the ranks. Likewise, many non-Commissioned members are equally fine and contribute just as much as many Officers, more than some no doubt. Having been a serviceman for over 23 years and leaving as a Warrant Officer I think I can make a pretty good assessment of the relative merits of others. The military will not, indeed cannot, operate without the requisite number of all ranks and musterings. The "them and us" attitude held by too many does little for the good of the services. On another point, I did not know the RAF guys flew around in their aircraft "at the Queens expense". (Tankertrashnav) I always thought the taxpayers funded the armed services.
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Samuel made a good post. Now for tuppence.
There are many airmen who fail becaus eof 'airmen tendencies' (don't ask).
There are many whose wives cannot handle the transition to the officers' mess.
As Samuel said, some SNCO (and WO) cannot change their mindset from non-commission to commission.
In the context of the original question though we are not talking of airmen going for a commission - the present system, but of would be officers serving as airmen for a tour or so perhaps before getting a commission.
This might work for a 17 year old but not for a graduate. A graduate at 24 on entry and 28 on a sqn cannot afford an additional 2-3 years as an airmen because that would both delay his professional training and aptitude fade would be well established.
An officer at IOT spends some 8 months as an 'airman' but isolated at the college of knowledge. It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.
There are many airmen who fail becaus eof 'airmen tendencies' (don't ask).
There are many whose wives cannot handle the transition to the officers' mess.
As Samuel said, some SNCO (and WO) cannot change their mindset from non-commission to commission.
In the context of the original question though we are not talking of airmen going for a commission - the present system, but of would be officers serving as airmen for a tour or so perhaps before getting a commission.
This might work for a 17 year old but not for a graduate. A graduate at 24 on entry and 28 on a sqn cannot afford an additional 2-3 years as an airmen because that would both delay his professional training and aptitude fade would be well established.
An officer at IOT spends some 8 months as an 'airman' but isolated at the college of knowledge. It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.
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"Airman tendencies" & "unable to handle the transition"
Pontius Navigator. Rarely have I seen such blatant "class distinction" written. Your condescending remarks are one of the very reasons a number of potential Officers elect to stay put "in the NCO ranks". Despite your (don't ask) I would like you to explain exactly what your comment infers. Likewise, please expand on your comment regarding wives not being able to handle the transition to the Officers' Mess. Surely, you must be joking. What the hell has an Officers wife got to do with the Officers Mess? It would seem to me that your comment infers that some Officers may be "embarrassed" by having their spouse accompany them to the Mess simply because she was previously a NCO's wife. Unbelievable waffle.
I have 2 best mates in the air force and they are superb officers., one went in direct entry IOT as a graduate while the other one joined as an airman. Near 10 yrs later the latter, went through OASC and graduated from IOT and did well through the course and doing well for himself in his branch.
Not sure if it makes any difference though bit of me agrees that an agreed period of time in the non commissioned ranks can't hurt.
Though there is the time issue of those going for pilot or weapons operator but then its been proved that there have been junior non commissioned ranks who spent several years before going through a commissioning course, then pilots course whether its been the RAF, AAC, FAA, USAF, USN, USMC, USA.
If I am correct, in the USA within the various academies and even the ROTC program, arn't the cadets hold nco ranks during the years leading up to their commission? I know they are cadet assigned ranks but don't they denote some form of increased responsibility as the years go by?
I suppose like with everywhere else, there's pro's and cons of this
Not sure if it makes any difference though bit of me agrees that an agreed period of time in the non commissioned ranks can't hurt.
Though there is the time issue of those going for pilot or weapons operator but then its been proved that there have been junior non commissioned ranks who spent several years before going through a commissioning course, then pilots course whether its been the RAF, AAC, FAA, USAF, USN, USMC, USA.
If I am correct, in the USA within the various academies and even the ROTC program, arn't the cadets hold nco ranks during the years leading up to their commission? I know they are cadet assigned ranks but don't they denote some form of increased responsibility as the years go by?
I suppose like with everywhere else, there's pro's and cons of this
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In the RAAF, there are two types of ex-airmen officers: awesome and awful... very little ground in between. Being an officer takes all types, but commissioning from the ranks is not the solution to all of Defence's problems. Let's just focus on the key skill sets that enables somebody to lead and also, you don't have to get your hands dirty to appreciate what's involved.
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Airmen tendencies ?
Pontius Navigator,
What can I say, at last some entertainment.... Please, don't stop, your foot is nearly all the way in.... what exactly are; "airmen tendencies" ?
Squawk
What can I say, at last some entertainment.... Please, don't stop, your foot is nearly all the way in.... what exactly are; "airmen tendencies" ?
Squawk
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I have replied to Old Fella by PM.
I leave it to others to comment and explain.
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"Airmen tendencies"
I don't know but I do know that that phrase is used at OASC
Such advice could help them make sure they don't soil the carpet at OASC!
Squawk
When I was in Aden we had a lot of pongoes on base (Khormaksar). A chum on 43 showed a young army officer acquaintance over one of the squadron's Hunters. After a while the puzzled lad asked "Very nice, but where does the competent NCO sit?"
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It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.
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Tankertrashnav
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True in a technical sense, but how many 17 year olds are going to enquire about pensions when all they are really interested in is getting their mitts on a nice shiny aeroplane and flying it at the queen's expense. I know if you can't take a joke ..... etc etc, but why is this joke only played on officers?
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True in a technical sense, but how many 17 year olds are going to enquire about pensions when all they are really interested in is getting their mitts on a nice shiny aeroplane and flying it at the queen's expense. I know if you can't take a joke ..... etc etc, but why is this joke only played on officers?
Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Apr 2009 at 18:10.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could