Re-introduction of Commissioning opportunities for NCA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Annes
Age: 68
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
perhaps there are issues here that result from the fleet you are from - I suspect that in some parts of the RAF commissioned NCOs were the right chaps for the job etc., and there is genuine puzzlement as a result. In other fleets it has been rather difficult to work out exactly how the selection process worked in a fair number of cases...
And therin lies the rub - an opinion shared by many a commissioning board... which is why a number of NCOs I have been crewed with eventually said 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and promptly took the gratuity and any other source of income going, and ended up as airline pilots and captains...
Look at what you wrote, and ask yourself where the logic went - they passed the aptitude tests but aren't suitable for training. (In the role the aptitude test is supposedly suppose to be testing for).
While a significant proportion of officers actually believe they are somehow endowed with a quality that cannot be defined or tested for, the RAF will continue to reject perfectly good candidates.
As for NCO pilots looking at commissioned rates of pay - spec aircrew is an example of how to make staying on a sqn attractive.... and dare it be said, after Sgt Bloggs has got onto his 2nd or 3rd tour perhaps somebody might realise he's a good egg and might be commissioned ready for a Flt Cdr role.... just as happened in WW2.... Was Ginger Lacey correctly appraised originally, do you think?
NCO commissions (in current specialisation) - good idea, but commission the guys who get B or A cats, not the weasels who run the cub scouts etc but who leave the answerphone on when short notice taskings come up.... the RAF's job is projection of airpower, too many people seem to think it's something to do with running clubs.
You could probably pick 20 people off the street and 10 of them would pass pilot aptitude tests. Not all of them would be suitable to be employed as a pilot.
Look at what you wrote, and ask yourself where the logic went - they passed the aptitude tests but aren't suitable for training. (In the role the aptitude test is supposedly suppose to be testing for).
While a significant proportion of officers actually believe they are somehow endowed with a quality that cannot be defined or tested for, the RAF will continue to reject perfectly good candidates.
As for NCO pilots looking at commissioned rates of pay - spec aircrew is an example of how to make staying on a sqn attractive.... and dare it be said, after Sgt Bloggs has got onto his 2nd or 3rd tour perhaps somebody might realise he's a good egg and might be commissioned ready for a Flt Cdr role.... just as happened in WW2.... Was Ginger Lacey correctly appraised originally, do you think?
NCO commissions (in current specialisation) - good idea, but commission the guys who get B or A cats, not the weasels who run the cub scouts etc but who leave the answerphone on when short notice taskings come up.... the RAF's job is projection of airpower, too many people seem to think it's something to do with running clubs.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ARTY
Your last diatribe would indicate that the only 'hang up' with officers seems to be your own personal angst. The RAF recruit officer only pilots, thats the policy, it works very well, get over it.
Pro Stude
Nicely put.
Could be the Last
As I see it officer rear crew will enter the melting pot on a Sqn and, on merit, compete for the SO2 slots with the front enders. If one of them is made SME for the rear crew NCA then that would be a good idea but I believe that the reincarnation of the old style crewman/loadie/rearcrew leaders is a non starter. However, if it did happen how much better would it be if a Sqn Cdr had a pool of officers to choose from.
Your last diatribe would indicate that the only 'hang up' with officers seems to be your own personal angst. The RAF recruit officer only pilots, thats the policy, it works very well, get over it.
Pro Stude
Nicely put.
Could be the Last
As I see it officer rear crew will enter the melting pot on a Sqn and, on merit, compete for the SO2 slots with the front enders. If one of them is made SME for the rear crew NCA then that would be a good idea but I believe that the reincarnation of the old style crewman/loadie/rearcrew leaders is a non starter. However, if it did happen how much better would it be if a Sqn Cdr had a pool of officers to choose from.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arty - Dad's gone, so no.
Front end aircrew are all on the same rate - in fact NCO aircrew (front) get more as they stay in trade up to enhanced normally. The only difference is PAS - L22 for NCO and L35 for Officers; this looks as if there will be a change soon (L28 for NCO)
IT IS ABOUT COST - not the paranoid concerns of the Officer class. We will not decide whether NCA become Commissioned or they remain NCA and end up in the front. Chaps get over your petty idiosyncratic parochialism and find the best solution for us all to remain in a job before FRA gets the Military contract – Arty (aren’t they deaf??) – some big words to prove I am older than 12 3/4!!!!!
I am not having a go at any opinions or persons (maybe a little retaliation here and there) - just pointing out the system may decide soon regardless of our wishes. We may need to embrace it or go.
Front end aircrew are all on the same rate - in fact NCO aircrew (front) get more as they stay in trade up to enhanced normally. The only difference is PAS - L22 for NCO and L35 for Officers; this looks as if there will be a change soon (L28 for NCO)
IT IS ABOUT COST - not the paranoid concerns of the Officer class. We will not decide whether NCA become Commissioned or they remain NCA and end up in the front. Chaps get over your petty idiosyncratic parochialism and find the best solution for us all to remain in a job before FRA gets the Military contract – Arty (aren’t they deaf??) – some big words to prove I am older than 12 3/4!!!!!
I am not having a go at any opinions or persons (maybe a little retaliation here and there) - just pointing out the system may decide soon regardless of our wishes. We may need to embrace it or go.
Dave JB,
Aptitude tests are just that. They are nothing more than a gross numpty check that filters out candidates who have no coordination, mental capacity, or SA. If someone commes up to you and says they passed pilot selection but failed on officer qualities, they mean the following:"I wasn't shown the door on day one becuase I was OK at the computer games, but couldn't find Afghanistan on a map" OK thats a litttle extreme, but my point is aptitude testing is a minor part of the process. That process is geared up to selecting a rounded military pilot first and foremost. If they have the qualities required to be a train as a pilot, they will by default have the qualities to hold a commision.
SJ Wort,
I have no angst, I am a commisioned pilot and as I said before would love to train up more NCOs as pilots ONCE THEY ARE COMMISIONED. For individuals of the same ability in the same job to be on different payscales at different ranks would be bonkers.
Gnd,
T'was a little banter
. If I am correct, I understand the thrust of your concern to be that NCO pilots would be cheaper and therefore may be foisted upon the RAF any way. I personaly can't see that happening, but it should be opposed if it were ever suggested.
I cannot comment on how the army do business. An appache captain / commander or whatever, is undoubtedly a proffesional whose abilities outstrip those of many RAF pilots. I would contend that all army pilots be given the option to be commisioned if they wanted it. Whether or not it would be an attractive option for an Army WO to become a Lt is some thing I cannot comment upon. But to have a pilot in the RAF wearing Sgt stripes would be doing the bloke a disservice.
Aptitude tests are just that. They are nothing more than a gross numpty check that filters out candidates who have no coordination, mental capacity, or SA. If someone commes up to you and says they passed pilot selection but failed on officer qualities, they mean the following:"I wasn't shown the door on day one becuase I was OK at the computer games, but couldn't find Afghanistan on a map" OK thats a litttle extreme, but my point is aptitude testing is a minor part of the process. That process is geared up to selecting a rounded military pilot first and foremost. If they have the qualities required to be a train as a pilot, they will by default have the qualities to hold a commision.
SJ Wort,
I have no angst, I am a commisioned pilot and as I said before would love to train up more NCOs as pilots ONCE THEY ARE COMMISIONED. For individuals of the same ability in the same job to be on different payscales at different ranks would be bonkers.
Gnd,
T'was a little banter
. If I am correct, I understand the thrust of your concern to be that NCO pilots would be cheaper and therefore may be foisted upon the RAF any way. I personaly can't see that happening, but it should be opposed if it were ever suggested.I cannot comment on how the army do business. An appache captain / commander or whatever, is undoubtedly a proffesional whose abilities outstrip those of many RAF pilots. I would contend that all army pilots be given the option to be commisioned if they wanted it. Whether or not it would be an attractive option for an Army WO to become a Lt is some thing I cannot comment upon. But to have a pilot in the RAF wearing Sgt stripes would be doing the bloke a disservice.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Another S**thole
Age: 51
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having read this thread I am somewhat disappointed by the attitude towards NCA/SNCO Aircrew displayed by fellow PPRuNe members. Particularly worrying is that several of you appear to be currently serving as officers in the RAF
I happen to be an RAF Pilot, commissioned from NCA several years ago. To your surprise I managed quite well with the aptitude tests but IOT was a whole new experience!
24 weeks taught me nothing about leadership or man-management that I did not already know as a SNCO. The only thing IOT taught me was sword drill!
The argument will always be there for and against NCO Pilots within the RAF - I for one could see it working quite nicely in the SH world and within certain other fleets.
If the guy's got the aptitude then let them have a crack at flying training - I have seen some utter twts make it to the front-line who are nothing but an embarrassment to the 'officer corps'.
You do not need a commission to be a pilot - it's about time the attitude changed towards NCA and SNCO pilots.
Rant over, back to the thread:-
Good to see NCA commissioning coming back - there's a whole pool of talented SNCOs out there who will make excellent SO3/SO2s in the near future.
Good luck and about time
I happen to be an RAF Pilot, commissioned from NCA several years ago. To your surprise I managed quite well with the aptitude tests but IOT was a whole new experience!
24 weeks taught me nothing about leadership or man-management that I did not already know as a SNCO. The only thing IOT taught me was sword drill!
The argument will always be there for and against NCO Pilots within the RAF - I for one could see it working quite nicely in the SH world and within certain other fleets.
If the guy's got the aptitude then let them have a crack at flying training - I have seen some utter tw
ts make it to the front-line who are nothing but an embarrassment to the 'officer corps'. You do not need a commission to be a pilot - it's about time the attitude changed towards NCA and SNCO pilots.
Rant over, back to the thread:-
Good to see NCA commissioning coming back - there's a whole pool of talented SNCOs out there who will make excellent SO3/SO2s in the near future.
Good luck and about time
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
If a someone has the aptitude and qualities to be a pilot why do they have the qualities to hold a commission.
Chalk and cheese maybe?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Why do officers think that everyone strives to be an officer? I'm an above average Sgt Air Eng, I have been for some time. The Air Eng promotion board is one of the least contested boards, there were only 14 people A grade last year to fill 4 slots, why you may ask, well most of us can't be bothered to play the secondary duty game that is now a requisite for promotion. I'm quite happy being a Sgt, I'm really not into all that jumping through hoops stuff, but I do take pride in my job and do it to the best of my abilities.
You see, I think there is scope for people like me to step into the seat in front of mine without being an Officer. Just because you managed to get through IOT does not suddenly make you a great leader, many Officers have proved this point to be correct.
Personally I'm working on promotion by attrition; I know that by the time I leave in 2023, there won't be many, if any, other Air Eng's left, so they'll have to promote me at some time, lol
You see, I think there is scope for people like me to step into the seat in front of mine without being an Officer. Just because you managed to get through IOT does not suddenly make you a great leader, many Officers have proved this point to be correct.
Personally I'm working on promotion by attrition; I know that by the time I leave in 2023, there won't be many, if any, other Air Eng's left, so they'll have to promote me at some time, lol
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True,
There are some NCA that have departed, done their licences and now fly as Captains – they most certainly were not Officer material as I can attest to in one very boorish Sgts to Officers Christmas function; the Boss still has nightmares and his hat never did recover!!!!!
I think the last post articulates the 'why would they want to be SNOs' answer very well, and it is from a SNCO so should be regarded as true, more representative than a guess anyway.
Apparently some of the Army pilots became successful Civilian Airline pilots too – would you credit it!!! And they never even tried to Commission?
There are some NCA that have departed, done their licences and now fly as Captains – they most certainly were not Officer material as I can attest to in one very boorish Sgts to Officers Christmas function; the Boss still has nightmares and his hat never did recover!!!!!
I think the last post articulates the 'why would they want to be SNOs' answer very well, and it is from a SNCO so should be regarded as true, more representative than a guess anyway.
Apparently some of the Army pilots became successful Civilian Airline pilots too – would you credit it!!! And they never even tried to Commission?
Oh for pity's sake! Let me try to spell out my (pro NCO) viewpiont in simple terms. As many of you seem to have completely misread me.
1) NCOs are top blokes and I would much rather train up more of them to be pilots than many of the commisioned pilots the training system throws out. That is because nearly all of the NCO aircrew I work with and drink with are more mature, harder working and well rounded.( in more ways than one!)
2) Because they display such obvious personal qualities, I think it would be a shame that on completion of their training, they were paid any less than their cohorts.
3) The ones who would seriously consider retraining as pilots all display so called "officer qualities" in abundance.
4) Given that IOT is an attendance course these days, a hoop to jump through, and point 3) above:
Why not give them a commision? I don't care if the scroll comes in the post or they do the full 24 weeks of triv.
5) I agree that YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AN OFFICER TO BE A PILOT!!! But whats the harm? I am no better than any one else just because I have a commision, but I appreciate the 60K a year.
I come in peace (except if you're a nav!)
Arty Fufkin
PS, Sideshow Bob, If you can't be arsed to get your Flt Sgt up (you said it ) why do you think you'd be competetive to be given a pilot slot? A little bit of work would be reqired mate.
1) NCOs are top blokes and I would much rather train up more of them to be pilots than many of the commisioned pilots the training system throws out. That is because nearly all of the NCO aircrew I work with and drink with are more mature, harder working and well rounded.( in more ways than one!)
2) Because they display such obvious personal qualities, I think it would be a shame that on completion of their training, they were paid any less than their cohorts.
3) The ones who would seriously consider retraining as pilots all display so called "officer qualities" in abundance.
4) Given that IOT is an attendance course these days, a hoop to jump through, and point 3) above:
Why not give them a commision? I don't care if the scroll comes in the post or they do the full 24 weeks of triv.
5) I agree that YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AN OFFICER TO BE A PILOT!!! But whats the harm? I am no better than any one else just because I have a commision, but I appreciate the 60K a year.
I come in peace (except if you're a nav!)
Arty Fufkin
PS, Sideshow Bob, If you can't be arsed to get your Flt Sgt up (you said it ) why do you think you'd be competetive to be given a pilot slot? A little bit of work would be reqired mate.
Last edited by Arty Fufkin; 19th Mar 2009 at 17:42.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Arty,
Arty you are also missing it. Sideshow Bob wants be a pilot but does not want the hastle of being an officer.
Years ago this sort of person has a Suplementary List commission - professional aircrew and permanent fg off!
3) The ones who would seriously consider retraining as pilots all display so called "officer qualities" in abundance
Years ago this sort of person has a Suplementary List commission - professional aircrew and permanent fg off!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now there is an idea - or - we could call them WO1/2/3/4.
OOO that sounds a bit yank to me.
Arty, I get your point and I agree with most of what you say. The difference is that some people want to be SNCOs and want to fly. It is, on the whole, cheaper to keep them that way so let them do it - if they choose.
Actually that isn't my point, it's my feeling. My point is the NAO or some other numpty organisation will probably realise this too and force it on us in this time of LEAN, Commissioned NCOs become very expensive as they normally come with PAS L35 and 05 - lucky them I here you say, a SNCO is L22 capped and cheaper than an SO2 behind a desk.
OOO that sounds a bit yank to me.
Arty, I get your point and I agree with most of what you say. The difference is that some people want to be SNCOs and want to fly. It is, on the whole, cheaper to keep them that way so let them do it - if they choose.
Actually that isn't my point, it's my feeling. My point is the NAO or some other numpty organisation will probably realise this too and force it on us in this time of LEAN, Commissioned NCOs become very expensive as they normally come with PAS L35 and 05 - lucky them I here you say, a SNCO is L22 capped and cheaper than an SO2 behind a desk.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bloody Royal's
Someone starts a thread about future commissioning opportunities for NCA and it's immediately hijacked by a bunch of O's telling us what's best for us............................
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SNCO pilots, not capped on rank I hope.
Allowances - need to be in a trade that can get them for that to make a difference - don't get them in Hampshire!!! or on Ops.
Allowances - need to be in a trade that can get them for that to make a difference - don't get them in Hampshire!!! or on Ops.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: England
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I welcome the opportunity for rear crew to get commissioned within branch. Although, as pointed out they will probably not fill the same old loadie leader slots etc they used to. However, for young ambitious and eager lads to get ahead and fill SO2/3 jobs then that’s great for them, but also the RAF. I'm fed up deploying and having some numpty making critical decisions who have no idea what they are on about, having no OP experience or the ability to listen to the experts. Clearly you will never stop this but by having commissioned NCA who have been have been deemed suitable by OASC then it has to be a good thing.
The thread has drifted slightly towards pilot selection. As an ex ranker and a 10 year crewman I would rather see the current system stay as is. It has been said already, why anyone would want to be a pilot and not be commissioned? I don’t understand it. There are NCA who would not make suitable officers but there are also officers who should not be officers, that is the way of the world. If someone is prepared to undertake 3 years of arduous training then they would surely be prepared to do IOT, if suitable.
Just because the Army do it one way it does not mean the RAF should do it too! Would it really save money, I don’t think so.
The thread has drifted slightly towards pilot selection. As an ex ranker and a 10 year crewman I would rather see the current system stay as is. It has been said already, why anyone would want to be a pilot and not be commissioned? I don’t understand it. There are NCA who would not make suitable officers but there are also officers who should not be officers, that is the way of the world. If someone is prepared to undertake 3 years of arduous training then they would surely be prepared to do IOT, if suitable.
Just because the Army do it one way it does not mean the RAF should do it too! Would it really save money, I don’t think so.
Last edited by Door Slider; 19th Mar 2009 at 22:09.