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F-4 Phantom

Old 7th Aug 2011, 20:10
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Brit aircrew on exchange, and indeed personnel on ground appointments, were allowed to deploy and many did. It was always subject to approval from BDS Washington.
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Old 7th Aug 2011, 20:25
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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I was on exchange with the USN 78/81. I used to visit McDonnell Douglas in St Louis every 6-8 weeks to work on AV-8B/F-18 cockpit systems integration.

The F-4 production line was reaching it's end and the McD engineers used to take great delight in showing us Greek and Turkish F-4's, next to each other on the production line. In fact, they used to say that every morning they had to adjust the aircraft back into line, as overnight they had started to point towards each other!

Either way, McD would win, no matter who won!!

Great business position.

Great aircraft - great company!

Sadly no longer an independent company, and a terrific warfighting aircraft is now assigned to history. Along with many others.

Never flew it myself, but would have loved to.

It looked aggressive and right!
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Old 8th Aug 2011, 13:29
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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I was on exchange with the USN 78/81.
This wasn't VX-4 perchance?


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Old 8th Aug 2011, 18:03
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Bevo

No - VX-5 at China Lake
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Old 8th Aug 2011, 19:29
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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OK - I was at VX-4 from Sept. 82 until Feb. 85. I was a USAF exchange pilot and Dave Braithwaite was there for about my first two months. Clive Morrell was there for the rest of my tour.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 00:21
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Pontius Navigator

Fast, rugged, good radar, huge load carrier.
It's performance compared pretty well to the F-106 actually. The F-106A was undoubtedly more elegant and beautiful in appearance (and slightly faster at top-end speed), but the F-4B had a greater intercept radius (750 nm vs 650 nm), a faster climb-rate (AFAIK).

The F-4B's radar boasted 25% greater range than the F-106A and was more reliable; it's two man crew reduced workload and didn't require a lot of the automation the F-102A and F-106A did.

I don't know how the F-4E's radar compared to the F-4B's, whether it was inferior, the same, superior, etc, but they were still used as interceptors by NORAD and ANG units, and I think it had an even greater intercept radius than the F-4B/C (786 nm vs ~ 750 nm).

In RAF service it could carry 9x1000lbs or bombs and the SUU.
Well, technically the plane was physically capable of carrying up to 22,500 pounds of payload; operationally, it was restricted to around 16,700. I don't know if an F-4 ever carried 16,000 pounds of bombs, but if the RAF was carrying 9,000 pounds of bombs, 2 x 450 gallon tanks and an SUU, you would probably be right up on the limit.


brickhistory

I always felt that the F-4 required more pure airmanship – the skills needed to fly the jet smoothly – than does the F-16 where the computer does a lot of the work for you.
Yeah, the F-4 had a number of ugly characteristics. Substantial adverse yaw due to it's ailerons (which for some reason only deflected down) combined with reduced rudder effectiveness under high g-loads was one problem, I think it had bad stall characteristics too (I'm not sure, but I remember something mentioned about a post-stall gyration).

The forward viz in the F-4 was never great. With the [gun]sight, canopy framing and the ‘Rhino’s’ long nose, it was nearly impossible to see ahead.
Actually, that might have been the reason the USN never developed an F-4 variant with a gun. Over the nose visibility is particularly important for carrier operations.


gibbo568

I seem to remember that the flaps would retract automatically at this speed too, if they had been forgotten by the pilot!
You sure you're not mixing the F-4 up with the F-15? They had a "blow-up" feature whereby the flaps would retract as the plane accelerated.

Last edited by Jane-DoH; 9th Aug 2011 at 00:54.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 01:18
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Did an F-4 ever do this?


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Old 9th Aug 2011, 01:39
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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the story about that picture is here Night Infamy and Folded Wings



this thread has an image of a Phantom flying with folded wings, but no idea if its genuine
Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - F-4 flying with wings folded???

Last edited by jamesdevice; 9th Aug 2011 at 02:00.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 02:10
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Jane-DoH
I don't know how the F-4E's radar compared to the F-4B's, whether it was inferior, the same, superior, etc, but they were still used as interceptors by NORAD and ANG units, and I think it had an even greater intercept radius than the F-4B/C (786 nm vs ~ 750 nm).

On F-4E/G models, the digital ARN-101 navigation system replaced the LN-12 inertial navigation system. The F-4E was equipped with the APQ-120 which offered considerable improvements in weight (290 kg), volume, performance and reliability through the use of solid-state circuitry. It is also designed to operate reliably in close proximity to the nose-gun installation of the F-4E. The F-4E also was equipped with the AIM-7F missile. The Northrop "Target Identification System Electro-Optical (TISEO)" camera system was also introduced in late F-4E production, being retrofitted to older aircraft as well. TISEO involved a steerable, stabilized telescopic camera mounted on the left wing, and was used primarily to inspect targets before engaging them. TISEO imagery was displayed on the WSO's radarscope. The camera could be slaved to the AN/APQ-120 radar, and linked to the navigation system to target flight checkpoints as well.

Navy F-4J/S were equipped with The AWG-10 and AWG10B using the AN/APG-59 radar. This was the first multi-mode radar set that included pulse-Doppler look-down capability as well as a comprehensive built-in-test (BIT) system.

You sure you're not mixing the F-4 up with the F-15? They had a "blow-up" feature whereby the flaps would retract as the plane accelerated.

Both aircraft had an auto-retract flap system. On the F-15C flaps automatically retracted at 250 kts. On the F-4D the flaps automatically retracted at 220 kts. +/- 10 kts. Some of us actually used this feature on the F-4 during air-to-air as using ˝ flaps provided some additional slow speed capability. I always had the guy in back call out airspeeds with the flaps down, and I would start them up before 220 kts. as going downhill you could still over speed the flaps as they may not retract fast enough.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 05:15
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Bevo

On F-4E/G models, the digital ARN-101 navigation system replaced the LN-12 inertial navigation system. The F-4E was equipped with the APQ-120 which offered considerable improvements in weight (290 kg), volume, performance and reliability through the use of solid-state circuitry.
So it actually despite being smaller and lighter actually did have superior range and tracking ability?

The F-4E also was equipped with the AIM-7F missile. The Northrop "Target Identification System Electro-Optical (TISEO)" camera system was also introduced in late F-4E production, being retrofitted to older aircraft as well. TISEO involved a steerable, stabilized telescopic camera mounted on the left wing, and was used primarily to inspect targets before engaging them. TISEO imagery was displayed on the WSO's radarscope. The camera could be slaved to the AN/APQ-120 radar, and linked to the navigation system to target flight checkpoints as well.
So it effectively allowed one to identify enemy aircraft further out making for more BVR engagements?

Navy F-4J/S were equipped with The AWG-10 and AWG10B using the AN/APG-59 radar.
The AWG-10 was the fire-control system and the AN/APG-59 was the radar?

This was the first multi-mode radar set that included pulse-Doppler look-down capability as well as a comprehensive built-in-test (BIT) system.
Assuming it's not classified: When you say multi-mode radar, do you mean it possessed both air-to-air and air-to-ground capability?

I assume it performed better than either the F-4C's radar, or the AN/APQ-120?

As for the BIT capability, it could do auto-diagnostics on itself then?

Both aircraft had an auto-retract flap system. On the F-15C flaps automatically retracted at 250 kts. On the F-4D the flaps automatically retracted at 220 kts. +/- 10 kts. Some of us actually used this feature on the F-4 during air-to-air as using ˝ flaps provided some additional slow speed capability.
You learn something new every day...
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 06:44
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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The RAF's F4s had folding wing outer sections but with the hydraulics removed. The panels were thus raised and lowered, and the locking pins engaged, manually. One aircraft at Bruggen was prepared for flight and the wings lowered but NOT locked and on take-off the crew had to abandon it. There was a tell-tale indicator pin on the wing but it wasn't that obvious
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 08:30
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Bruggen episode - nav was Tobin?
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 12:29
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Re Nav with folding wings, I believe it was Kevin Toal.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 12:38
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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I’d throw my helmet bag with snacks and water and other junk in the space to the sides of the ejection seat.
snacks and water! - typical American - can't last an hour without eating something
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 13:24
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Was the Bruggen Nav. not Inverarrity?
AQ I think the folding wing episode was at Wattisham.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 14:11
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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MATKAT,

Sorry - you are mistaken. The Folding wings episode was at Bruggen (31 Sqn - XV 431 and the remains ended up in 431 MU) - this is well documented in various reports and books

Kev Toal was the Nav and Ray Pilley(Spell?) was the driver-airframe. The re-enactment (less the crash!) was done at Coningsby for the film crew (at the same time as the re-enactment filming of the F4 QRA incident at a very northen unit - RAF fire engines making the (very cold) rain was a sight to see!

As a pedantic point - some RAF F4,s in the 70's and 80's and pre F4J days still had hyd wing spread/fold - controlled by a switch in the left main wheel bay
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 14:14
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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AI was the unfortunate nav in the F4/Jag incident in RAFG, the driver being RL.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 14:34
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks DPB I spoke to an ex F4 tech sitting over the desk from me and we both thought it was Wattisham to many years and beers, was certain it was AI in the Jag/Tomb incident though as had regular meetings with Him when he left RAFG and returned to Leuchars, anyone know if he is still around?

Google is your friend.

A 92 Squadron F-4M XV422 flown by Roy Lawrence with nav Alistair Inverarity shot down Jaguar XX963 of 14 Squadron, flown by Steve Griggs. Griggs ejected twice within a five-month period; the first after being shot down by the F-4 Phantom; the second after a catastrophic engine fire over Northeast Scotland. Last I heard he was OC 41 with an AFC for NVG work.

Last edited by matkat; 9th Aug 2011 at 14:39. Reason: google info.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 16:07
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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A2QFI,
If I remember correctly, the RAF's F4's were from three routes. The first were F4M's, direct to the RAF, the second were F4K's, originally intended for the RN's second carrier, but diverted to the RAF when that was cancelled.

The third route was from the RN when the Ark Royal was finally decommissioned.

As you say the F4M had a purely manual wing fold, the F4K's were a mix of pilot controlled folding, (the switch was under a large guard situated at the rear of the RH cockpit side panel. When the guard was raised to access the switch, a cable operated the lock), or ground crew controlled, via a switch in the wheel well. On these the lock pin was screwed in manually as on the F4M's. These are probably the ones DBP remembers.

Thankfully I never worked on the F4M, so never had to do a manual wingfold!

Another 'throwback' to the Navy days was the noseleg extension. Controlled from a switch in the MLG bay, the nose leg would extend about 24 inches for carrier take off. AFAIK, there was NO facility to reverse this, the 'shrinking' being part of the retraction sequence. I think this had been removed before I got to 43 in '81.
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Old 9th Aug 2011, 20:42
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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If I remember correctly, the folding wing switch was moved from the cockpit to the wheel well when the RWR mod was incorporated.
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